Loss of KELAERIN Rescue of Crew June 2018

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Neptune's Gear

Well, for anyone interested, here is my take. This is NO reflection on Jim and Joy (they are personal friends, we spent time cruising in company) at all. Jim is an experienced skipper, and retired tug captain.
I lived and sailed south of 40 deg for 40 odd years. ..........

Matt is of course, referring to sailing south of 40 South.

The astute reader will know this but it might have gone over the heads of others .

[OldManMirage]

[QUOTE=Pelagic;2662052]I think you may not have the concept of heave to clear.

Your actully crabbing forward accross the wind with rudder lashed tight to windward.""

I don't believe this is correct. When heaving to you are not moving forward but sliding backwards, or sideways, (however you want to look at it) which creates a slick to windward helping to calm breaking seas. Or so goes my understanding and experience. I have practiced heaving to on boats I have owned, but I have never had to do it under conditions that made it necessary.

[OldManMirage]

On another note, a thought that occurs - not saying it applies in this case, or judging their actions, this is just food for thought - when I was learning to fly we were introduced to the concept of "get-home-itus."


Essentially the desire to get the plane back home to your airport. And trying to do so regardless of deteriorating conditions or other circumstances, such as low fuel.


I think sailors could easily fall prey to this and press on when we shouldn't. Again, not saying that's what happened here, this is just an thought to keep in your seabag.

[DumnMad]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I think this is where you misunderstand that Heavy Weather Tactics are really an evolution.

Before conditions get dangerous, you heave to and prep the boat. Then well before it becomes no longer safe for crew to stay on deck, you lay Ahull.

Otherwise, i guess that those like Skip Novak, Boatie and myself have somehow survived that stupidity [emoji4]

I guess tactics will vary for different size and type of yacht.and different circumstances.

In my limited experience it was a 14t yacht, 60+ knots running downwind under bare poles, buckled in and hanging onto the wheel while steering to keep the boat aligned. Hove to for sleep came later after we'd survived the worst of the waves and the risk of being rolled had diminished.
We were fine, but if we'd rolled it would have been "wrong tactics"

[Pelagic]

[QUOTE=OldManMirage;2662164]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I think you may not have the concept of heave to clear.

Your actully crabbing forward accross the wind with rudder lashed tight to windward.""

I don't believe this is correct. When heaving to you are not moving forward but sliding backwards, or sideways, (however you want to look at it) which creates a slick to windward helping to calm breaking seas. Or so goes my understanding and experience. I have practiced heaving to on boats I have owned, but I have never had to do it under conditions that made it necessary.

Hi old man mirage
The fwd motion laying a hull exists but can be very slight as she tries to turn upwind with the fwd motion and lashed helm.

But that motion is stalled by the storm Jib..
If you are going backwards, then the main sail is not balanced enough to edge forward.

I agree you are mostly making
Leeway, and the slick helps a lot in moderate conditions.

Laying Ahull aspect varies a lot more depending on the hull and windage configuration.

Most boats tend to have their stern find the wind when drifting, but generally will.find an equilibrium with the stern quarter to the wind.
The fixed rudder position is something you need to play with for each type of boat.

In this case you are drifting more downwind than when hove to, but without any real momentum.

Seas will tend to break on top rather than cause the boat to surf and roll.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by gmakhs

Never experienced the engine bilge pump idea , but it's quite easy with a 3 way valve on the intake so you can make it suck water from.the inside as for the derbis a metal filter or.plastic like the bbilge pumps filter would do the job .

We use this system on tankers ships in case of an emergency , and it can remove a lot.of water .

How useful this COULD be depends on the size of the engine and how much water it pumps.

Most sailboat engines will not pump a meaningful amount of water. A big ship engine or a large motor yacht might be different. I never thought this was a good idea -- you'll just clog it like the other pumps got clogged, and now you don't have a working engine, either.

But in any case, adding another middling, clog-prone pump discharging through a small hose is not going to make a critical difference. Bilge pumps will not save your boat in case you get any significant flooding.

To get a large amount of water out of the boat in case of a real flooding emergency, you need a different kind of pump altogether, than a bilge pump. You need a pump with a large diameter discharge and a MACERATOR. That's because in most flooding emergencies, pumps get clogged with stuff washed into the bilge, just like in this case, which is a perfect example of how people can't get the water out in a flooding emergency.

A proper dewatering pump is a different beast from a bilge pump. A construction site dewatering pump/trash pump is a good choice for this duty. That's what we have, with a 3" roll-up fire hose for the discharge.

[a64pilot]

Back to the sea anchor.
Chafe is why the first 100’ is anchor chain, plus of course I have a good system of attaching my anchor chain to the boat, so why not use that for a sea anchor as well, with all the rode in the water, overheating and chafe ought to be lessened?
So far as sailing at anchor so to speak, the Pardey system is I believe meant to cope with that. I admit I had not thought that out well enough, I will now.
Initial thought is my Mantus chain hook attached to 100’ of rode, it attached to the anchor chain of course and led back to a sheet winch. Good, bad, thoughts?

[a64pilot]

Pump wise, there is a pump that is attached to your drive shaft that pumps anytime the shaft is turning, with no water is just is another fan so to speak exhausting air overboard.
Or as Dockhead was talking, a construction trash pump. I’d not seen one with a macerated though, I had only seen diaphragm pumps meant to pump mud and small rocks etc.

[Rick Williams]

Wait, what? Ground the pilot?
He should get an award. That's the kind of flying they're trained to do and two people were saved because they're that good at what they do.
He had one minute left because he was willing to stretch his safety margin to the limit to save a couple human beings.
That's amazing! That's courage! That's not reckless if that's his job.
Credit owed where credit is due.

[waterman46]

Hats off to the Coasties!

But, I did not see any mention in the account, of whether the main companionway was definitely secured closed or even just closed but not latched. One can't help but wonder at the omission of this vital bit of information.

[ka4wja]

I read this whole thread, last night....and am truly sorry for the loss of their boat (and their precious personal possessions)...but am glad that they were successfully rescued and are alive-n-well!!

{Thank you Steadman for posting this!! And, I think I owe you a reply to a message from a while back, just don't remember the message...opps. I've been quite busy on-n-off, so please ask again and if I can help, I will gladly do so...}


Like others here, I'm not second-guessing anyone....and I agree with most of what Beleizesailor and Jim and Ann Cate have written!!
And, I'd like to add just a few of my own observations...(I'm not going to go through them all / write a book here....not the time-n-place)


1) First off, yep, the USCG are some of the most professional and brave souls that ply the seas!!
Until the USCG became part of DHS, they were (and maybe still are??) the only armed service whose mission is to save lives...
(Think about this for a moment...what a wonderful mission...and these guys/gals do that everyday...and not just at sea...everyone remember Hurricane Katrina?? With all the talk of how screwed-up governments are, it's really a nice feeling to know how wonderful one part of one gov't is!!)
Truly a calling for each of them...and while I hope to never need them for a rescue, I can still appreciate them!


2) Secondly, they had a working and properly registered EPIRB!!!
What a Godsend!
EPIRB Activation? What happens/How to improve rescue odds

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/epirbs-are-not-dead-epirb-activation-what-happens-how-to-improve-rescue-odds-146617.html

Those that aren't aware of how important the fact that they had someone on shore that could quasi-confirm their distress...in 3rd world areas, please read this thread below, as well as the ones above:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f90/5-days-in-the-liferaft-200852-3.html#post2629491

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f90/any-more-info-on-lost-marbles-rescue-off-puerto-rico-202205-3.html#post2648016



3) Third, this story shows us that while some rail against ignorant / inexperienced folks "just going for it", it is just as important that those of us with offshore experience to not complacent!
Notice the italics here, showing my own thoughts / issues...so others can see I'm not being critical, but rather sharing my takeaways...
Complacently can be insidious and can breed danger...

(I am one who has become complacent myself....and have "let a few things go", that I know better and should take care of them....secured everything many years ago....but, never finished....and think I will finally get around to securing the rest of my floor hatches!)

This couple was very experienced and their boat seems to have been sound and well-equipped...
But, their complacency, like mine (and others?), is sometimes almost invisible, but easy to see in hindsight....and hopefully we can all learn from this story (and not be critical of them).

Here are just a few things that stand out to me:

--- Some have commented on heavy items not being well secured....and yep, that's an easy thing to find, but sometimes hard to understand "how-to" secure them...
Case-in-point: SCUBA tanks are heavy and if they come loose, they are deadly projectiles....
I have mine secured out back, on the transom / stern...and/or have the same big SS eye-straps and heavy webbing bolted thru a bulkhead in a locker to secure 'em inside as well...

My SCUBA Tank mounting:
http://www.c470.jerodisys.com/470pix/47005.htm

In their case, they also had a spare self-steering windvane, which can be quite a unwieldy contraption to stow and secure....a spare anchor is heavy, and a problem....but the spare windvane seems like a real pain to figure out where/how to secure??


--- And, while I'm not familiar with their boat, the fact that a knock-down would cause the companionway ladder to become "dislodged"?? This just seems odd to me??
Perhaps a design/construction flaw?? I don't know, but a lesson for everyone here! (what would happen inside your boat, when knocked-down / 90*...or even rolled a complete 360*???)
What would our boats do / look like after a knock-down or complete roll??
I know the only way my companionway steps are going to be dislodged is if the whole boat broke up, and by then I better be in a liferaft or on shore!
(I still need to better secure my tool locker, as their weight/momentum aren't what the latches were designed for.)
While some think it an overkill, I have used the ISAF Cat 1 and Cat 0 requirements as a guide for my boats and how I outfit, commission, and secure things...(some of the "sq inches of openings", etc. specs aren't followed precisely, 'cuz you'd have to custom-make the boat....but lots of their other ideas are good.)


--- Whether you have a liferaft or not, whether you'd step "up" into it, or down into it...remember that water is 400 times denser than air....and when lots of water is being driven by mother nature against your boat, simple tie-downs and rails are no match!
(another reason that some, like me, do not lash things to the deck...my liferaft is secured in a latching cockpit locker...although on ocean passages, I do have my RIB strapped to the toerails, bow cleats, and mast...these are structural / integral parts of the boat, and should hold the dinghy except in a roll-over, where even the mast is likely to be broken off)



--- Their EPIRB was good! Thank God!....and they had electrical power, operated the VHF radio just fine....so, I'm curious as to what happened to their SSB radio??
Dead?
Well, it's certainly possible that it was dead....but also possible that something else was amiss? (like not calling on the proper freq? and/or not using HF-DSC?)
Everyone here knows I'm an HF radio fan, and have shouted from my soapbox about HF-DSC, so I won't delve into that here....not the least of which is because they were within easy HF SSB Voice comm range of the USCG (in Pt. Reyes, CA), just hope they were trying on 8291.0khz, and not on 2182!
https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=cgcommsCall

A couple other recent rescues:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f90/any-more-info-on-lost-marbles-rescue-off-puerto-rico-202205-3.html#post2648016

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f90/5-days-in-the-liferaft-200852-3.html#post2629491


And, some other pertinent thoughts:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f2/azores-2014-how-safe-is-it-122743-5.html


---- Another form of complacency is an unfortunate "reliance" (???) on raw computer model data for weather (this is what GRIB charts are)...
I know in our modern times it's common for laypersons to assume if it comes off a computer, it must be accurate...and sometimes as we see good results in short-term use (like a 2 or 3 day forecast, or along tradewind routes where, except for the ITCZ, weather patterns don't change often), it can become "natural" to assume that what you're using is actually accurate/good...and it might be....but it might not be!

GRIB charts are the raw computer model data, and many sailors even exasperate this issue by using data from only one computer model (such as the GFS)...

If you have no other weather info/forecasts available, then sure GRIBs can be great...but, if you have experienced maritime meteorologists using all their years of knowledge (and input from multiple models, and real-time weather data from ships, bouys, and satellite scans, etc.) to draw weather charts for you, and all done for you 4 times a day, every day, 365 days/year, all for free....and transmitted over the radio, for free, from multiple locations, multiple times per day....(US/NOAA WeFax Charts, transmitted by USCG)...why use GRIBs versus a WeFax chart???

I'm hesitant to bring this up...'cuz it might seem critical...so please know this is not my intention, but rather to bring to light the fact that it is possible that these storm conditions could've been avoided (or at least better prepared for), if WeFax charts had been used instead of a GRIB chart?
Hey, maybe it would've made no difference in this situation, but just thinking it might have!

In my opinion, it seems complacent to ignore what most ocean mariners consider to be the gold standard of offshore weather info/forecasts and instead use raw computer model data...
Not sure if others will agree with me here, just voicing my opinion.




---- Like some of the others here, I also would've rode to my para-anchor / sea-anchor in storm conditions...(I have a 16' Fiorentino Offshore para-anchor, to lie-to....and/or a drogue to tow, to run downwind with....each w/ 450' of 3/4" double-braided Dacron/poly-braid over nylon braid, and lots of chafe gear, plus fire hose...and have used this as a hurricane rode in 90+kts / 24+hrs., and all was fine....and chain if needed)
In conditions up-to storm conditions (below Force 10), I've hove-to just fine...
With a couple hundred miles of sea room, the options are many....if you have the equipment...

Originally Posted by belizesailor

In this case we have a well prepared and well found yacht with an experienced crew, no big glaring deficiencies here. So what to learn?

I think a few things (not second guessing or critisizing, just analyzing):

Avoidance. Its always better to avoid a bad situation, so how could they have potentially avoided this? They switched to more responsive ashore contacts which was good, but I think more active weather routing support from ashore might (might) have helped them avoid the weather bomb. Either a pro weather router or knowledgeable friend.

Storm Tactics. They found themselves in a trap running with the storm. Heaving-to or deploying drogue/sea anchor may have helped. This could have been a good situation for the Pardey's tactic of sea anchor assisted heaving-to. Heaving-to likely would have helped with the rescue too...pretty amazing that rescue swimmer could haul himself on to a boat doing 5 knots.

Below Decks. As already posted, better securing things below decks would have lessened the carnage.

Companion Way Closed. Probably good to have a policy aboard for when the companion way stays securely closed based on sea state/winds. Downflooding is a common mode of loss with monohulls (big & small).

Clipping In. Also good to have a similar policy for when to clip in even in the cockpit. The husband came very near to becoming an MOB...likely fatal under the circumstances.

The Life Raft Debate. There are many rescue accounts like this one where the life raft or dinghy were lost. This case is unusual in that both were swept from the decks. Redundancy is good I think, which is why I carry both, but in this case they needed a plan C. On longer crossings mine is below, but accessible, in a valise in a bunk, but thats on a cat where catastrophic (sudden) sinking is unlikely. On a mono, where catastrophic sinking is a possibility, I think its best above decks with a hydro relase. Theirs was well secured, so I dont know how to improve upon this in their case. Ideas?

Other thoughts?

Again, some of my comments might seem to be second-guessing, but they are not...as all my above comments I have mentioned in other threads and voiced these same opinions before....
The difference here is that we don't have any loss of life, and we can all learn from this without much guilt.


Fair winds to all..

John

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

.....
Perhaps a design/construction flaw?? I don't know, but a lesson for everyone here! (what would happen inside your boat, when knocked-down / 90*...or even rolled a complete 360*???)
What would our boats do / look like after a knock-down or complete roll??
...

Well...mine would look like it was upside down! 🤣

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

. . .
---- Another form of complacency is an unfortunate "reliance" (???) on raw computer model data for weather (this is what GRIB charts are)...
I know in our modern times it's common for laypersons to assume if it comes off a computer, it must be accurate...and sometimes as we see good results in short-term use (like a 2 or 3 day forecast, or along tradewind routes where, except for the ITCZ, weather patterns don't change often), it can become "natural" to assume that what you're using is actually accurate/good...and it might be....but it might not be!

GRIB charts are the raw computer model data, and many sailors even exasperate this issue by using data from only one computer model (such as the GFS)...

If you have no other weather info/forecasts available, then sure GRIBs can be great...but, if you have experienced maritime meteorologists using all their years of knowledge (and input from multiple models, and real-time weather data from ships, bouys, and satellite scans, etc.) to draw weather charts for you, and all done for you 4 times a day, every day, 365 days/year, all for free....and transmitted over the radio, for free, from multiple locations, multiple times per day....(US/NOAA WeFax Charts, transmitted by USCG)...why use GRIBs versus a WeFax chart???

I'm hesitant to bring this up...'cuz it might seem critical...so please know this is not my intention, but rather to bring to light the fact that it is possible that these storm conditions could've been avoided (or at least better prepared for), if WeFax charts had been used instead of a GRIB chart?
Hey, maybe it would've made no difference in this situation, but just thinking it might have!

In my opinion, it seems complacent to ignore what most ocean mariners consider to be the gold standard of offshore weather info/forecasts and instead use raw computer model data...
Not sure if others will agree with me here, just voicing my opinion.. . . .

This is in my opinion excessive drift for this thread, but is so relevant and so extremely interesting, that I have started a new thread for discussion of this issue:

Reliance on GRIB Files - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Pump wise, there is a pump that is attached to your drive shaft that pumps anytime the shaft is turning, with no water is just is another fan so to speak exhausting air overboard.
Or as Dockhead was talking, a construction trash pump. I’d not seen one with a macerated though, I had only seen diaphragm pumps meant to pump mud and small rocks etc.

I would haul mine out and photograph it to show you, if it weren't so heavy.

We'll be drilling with in in the next few days with the crew, so I'll try to photograph it then.

It looks like a giant sump pump, and it has a big macerator blade on the impeller. It's supposed to pass solids up to 2" in diameter.

[Steadman Uhlich]

For some reason, the link I posted earlier for the USCG video no longer works.

I suspect the video was moved because of bandwidth or something.

Here is a new, working, link from the USCG Facebook page. Best viewed full screen. Has sound of helicopter, no narration.

USCG Helicopter Video (fly by) on Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/USCGPNW/vid...9360913449804/

USCG Helicopter Video (fly by) on YouTube
https://youtu.be/tyjF8maL_u0


And here is the same video on another site that features defense dept videos.

https://www.dvidshub.net/video/60802...-arrives-scene