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Old 19-12-2017, 23:23   #46
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Re: Australian yacht sinks near Philippines

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
" Since I have over 100 g/m"

Grams per metre?

Oh, I guess you mean gal/min

What is powering that pump? with a boat full of water.
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Old 20-12-2017, 00:29   #47
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Re: Australian yacht sinks near Philippines

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Originally Posted by kmacdonald View Post
It will take more than a life raft to save you in high latitudes. A survival suit or dry suit with very warm clothing would also be needed. You won't stay dry in a life raft and the water is really cold. Best not to suffer and leave the raft at home.
Or, carry survival suits when sailing in cold water. We have an immersion suit for everyone on board on our S/V.

I fully respect everyone's choice to sail with or without a raft/epirb/vhf--whatever. It's your choice.

But, I also know more than one guy who has had their life saved by a life raft. I know several who had to abandon due to fire, and a couple who have sunk-all on boats far more seaworthy than our toys. I think that keeping a viable last chance at survival is more than sensible.

I don't think that carrying this gear gives anybody a false sense of security, but represents a real crack at staying alive if the boat is lost. And, make no mistake-ALL boats can be lost, even the newest, most prepared, most awesome boats afloat. Even if you've got the sinking thing all figured out, how about fire?

Everyone should also realize that life in a survival craft sucks. There's no excuse for using one being fitted as an excuse to be lax on seaworthiness issues for the main vessel.

On the choice to abandon in this case-Dock and others are right. None of us were there, and making judgements from home is all too easy, and all too ill-informed.
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Old 20-12-2017, 04:12   #48
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Re: Australian yacht sinks near Philippines

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, DockDoc.
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Old 20-12-2017, 08:08   #49
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Re: Australian yacht sinks near Philippines

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
First, I didn't say this was my personal choice. In fact I always have a life raft on passages. However I am reporting what has been said by more than one, very experienced cruiser. One example, forum adviser Estarzinger who has done two circumnavigations and more serious, high latitude sailing than most.

I do have to agree with this thinking to some degree. It is just human nature to have somewhere in the back of your mind that the life raft is there.

Are you 100% certain this won't be a factor when trying to decide whether or not to spend the extra few thousand for an emergency rudder or install that $2000 super bilge pump or replace the rigging this year instead of next year?

Are you sure that after days in horrible weather fighting to save the boat that raft on deck won't prevent you from making that last, superhuman effort to plug the leak or jury rig a mast or unjam the rudder or whatever and instead just pop the raft and trigger the EPIRB?
Controlling risks is all about balancing and optimizing different possible measures. Of COURSE if you have a raft, you will abandon sooner in the process -- because if you DON'T have a raft, you can't abandon at all! Of course money spent on the raft can't be spent on something else, like a serious dewatering pump. There is nothing wrong with this at all -- normal juggling of risk factors and risk control measures.

But to forgo a raft or EPIRB in order to force yourself to do something, you think you should have done in any case? That's a weird kind of psychological self-management. Wouldn't it be better to just do that thing, rather than giving up your last ditch defense against a watery grave, in order to manipulate yourself psychologically?

Likewise, why would you risk death just to avoid inconveniencing rescue workers? Rescuing is what they DO -- their career and mission in life. I'm sure they would be appalled if they thought that some people were forgoing EPIRBs just to avoid giving them a chance to do their thing.

In my opinion, this is all nonsense which is just a roundabout way to justify not taking the trouble or spending the money to be properly equipped. It's your own choice, but I think it's nuts to go far offshore without either EPIRB or raft.

Besides EPIRB and raft (actually two rafts), I also have a major dewatering pump -- 44,000 l/h -- with fire hose. I take care and spend money to keep my boat in seaworthy condition. EPIRB and raft in no way reduce my other efforts to manage these risks. I would do everything possible to avoid the horror of going into the raft, but I sure am glad I have it there. I sail in cold water, and going into that cold water in case of sinking or fire would be certain death, even with a survival suit.

Next boat will be safer still with multiple watertight compartments.
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Old 20-12-2017, 08:20   #50
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Re: Australian yacht sinks near Philippines

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Old 20-12-2017, 15:16   #51
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Re: Australian yacht sinks near Philippines

Hi SV Ohana
Thanks for that update on boats position.

FYI there is a 2nd Tropical Storm barrelling towards that position, so it probably will get destroyed in the next few days
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Old 20-12-2017, 15:29   #52
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Re: Australian yacht sinks near Philippines

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post

In my opinion, this is all nonsense......
... It's your own choice, but I think it's nuts to go far offshore without either EPIRB or raft.
My exact thoughts and while these so called independent 'captains' are prepared to go down with their ship....

...They should take a moment to think of that final look in the eye of their less experienced crew, who trusted them....when they realize that a more humble and professional approach to seeking help and as a final option...transferring to an escape capsule.... Could have saved your crew.
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Old 21-12-2017, 14:25   #53
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Re: Australian yacht sinks near Philippines

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Regarding safety, security an sales things are not easy to understand. Etap produced unsinkable boats, mostly small ones and the last ones where even well designed nice boats.


Unfortunately the yard itself was not unsinkable...
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Old 21-12-2017, 15:30   #54
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Re: Australian yacht sinks near Philippines

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Unfortunately the yard itself was not unsinkable...
LOL. That's a good one
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Old 21-12-2017, 15:32   #55
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Re: Australian yacht sinks near Philippines

I feel sorry for two dogs. rest in peace in dog heaven.
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Old 21-12-2017, 16:13   #56
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Re: Australian yacht sinks near Philippines

There are reports suggesting that the skipper was a bit reckless with his timing. In fairness, mid-December is actually right at the very end of Typhoon season in the Phils, as I remember. Also to say that "the Typhoon was blowing up" is not true. As far as I can tell, tropical storm Kai-Tak (AKA Urduja) was never classed as a typhoon.

An interesting question would be about the weather report. Did they get word of the tropical depression (then storm) heading their way?
I'm sure there are more important details that have yet to come out.

"Cairns yachtie took chance Laurie Miller took chance on trip during typhoon season"
No Cookies | The Cairns Post
AN acquaintance of a Cairns yachtie rescued off the coast of the Philippines said the crew should not have taken the trip through southeast Asia waters during typhoon season.
Des Vizzard knew Laurie Miller, who was rescued after five days floating in a tiny dinghy lost at sea, through the Ulysses Motorcycle Club and spoke to him before he set off on the trip.
Mr Vizzard said Mr Miller was a “very experienced” sailor and had been a merchant seaman all his life.
“I knew he was going there,” he said.
“The weather is not good at this time of year.
“They shouldn’t have gone, because that typhoon was blowing up the last couple of weeks although I had heard the boat was pretty big.”
Owner of the 18m Katerina, Lionel Ansselin, had approached Cairns Yacht Club looking for a crewman to join him on a trip to deliver the boat to its new owner.
Townsville man Anthony Mahoney died during the crew’s wait for rescue.
It is understood Mr Miller’s Townsville-based wife flew to the Philippines yesterday and his son, who lives in Russia, was also en route there.
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Old 21-12-2017, 16:51   #57
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Re: Australian yacht sinks near Philippines

The problem with advancing technology is that often people think it supplants the older tech, when it was really just made to augment it.

I can not tell you how many car accident victims I see who I ask, "Were you wearing your seat belt?" and the reply is "No the car has all kinds of airbags." With the seat belt and the air bags they would have never showed up in my ER, without it they usually have various injuries from minor to life threatening, and sadly life taking. Before you say it's "this young generation too dependent on tech" most of the folks who I talk to are 50+ years old.

Perhaps the same happens on Sailing vessels as well.

Really no replacement for adequate preparation, clear thinking and proper gear. I learned that from SCUBA, kayaking, rock climbing and traveling. It applies every where.
As I tell the med students, if it were not for stupidity, alcohol, testosterone and gasoline I would be out of a job.
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Old 21-12-2017, 16:54   #58
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Re: Australian yacht sinks near Philippines

For those who feel that a life raft is somehow optional equipment for an offshore passage, I have only one word: FIRE

I have a boat with multiple watertight compartments. The chances of it ever sinking from water ingress are certainly not zero, but really, really tiny. If water ingress into the main hull was the only reason to have a liferaft, I would probably eschew one.

But I have been on three boats that were on fire. I can imagine nothing worse at sea than a fire onboard. You have a few seconds to get it under control, and that's it, you are roasting or swimming. I suspect, but have no data, that it is a more common event than a boat sinking for other reasons.

As for the thinking that a life raft causes people to short cut other safety precautions, that is 100% pure and simple rationalization. You might believe it, but the only reason you would do so is because you need to justify your decisions.
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Old 22-12-2017, 00:59   #59
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Re: Australian yacht sinks near Philippines

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For those who feel that a life raft is somehow optional equipment for an offshore passage, I have only one word: FIRE

I have a boat with multiple watertight compartments. The chances of it ever sinking from water ingress are certainly not zero, but really, really tiny. If water ingress into the main hull was the only reason to have a liferaft, I would probably eschew one.

But I have been on three boats that were on fire. I can imagine nothing worse at sea than a fire onboard. You have a few seconds to get it under control, and that's it, you are roasting or swimming. I suspect, but have no data, that it is a more common event than a boat sinking for other reasons.

As for the thinking that a life raft causes people to short cut other safety precautions, that is 100% pure and simple rationalization. You might believe it, but the only reason you would do so is because you need to justify your decisions.
100% spot on.
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Old 22-12-2017, 06:06   #60
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Re: Australian yacht sinks near Philippines

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To be clear, the rescuers live for the thrill of the rescue. Its why they are rescuers.
This conclusion I think is simplistic and a bit cynical to claim that rationale as the sole motivation for each and every rescuer on the planet.

Of course the thrill of the job is undeniable but it is also undeniable that many, many rescuers have a deep desire to save lives and help those in trouble.

Other motivations might be career advancement, desire to learn new skills, assignment to interesting locations and any number of individual, psychological issues. To analyze the full extent of any person's reasoning and motivation for any action is way more complex than a single reason and could fill a book.
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