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Old 19-12-2017, 16:27   #31
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Re: Australian yacht sinks near Philippines

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Originally Posted by alctel View Post
Thats waaaaaay out of the range of Oz SAR isn't it? I don't even get your point. Whats a '2 dollar reffo'
I gather you don't get many refuge boats up your way

And i could be wrong here but i do believe his grievance is with regards the time period it took to locate them, RCC Aus are supposed to have received the distress alert and informed there Philippine counterparts immediately, 5 days before they where located by fishermen....he wasn't referring to Aus SAR searching for them, but why it took the local version so long to find them....

But as Pelagic stated....

Quote:
Local Coast Guard is far too thin and underfunded to be relied on.
....people just have to accept that some places on the planet may not be as efficient as your used to at home, and if they can't accept that? don't leave home
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Old 19-12-2017, 16:33   #32
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Re: Australian yacht sinks near Philippines

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Originally Posted by Robert Tilbury View Post
My question is whay were the philipiens left to do the search and rescue when every 2 dollar reffo that jumps on a boat heading for Australia gets the best treatment from the Australian SAR <<<<<

this really rattles my cell door ,,!

Rest In Peace , sailer ,
very sad day ,
Oh dear

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Old 19-12-2017, 17:01   #33
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Re: Australian yacht sinks near Philippines

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Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
Don't quite understand your point....Philippines is way outside Oz SAR logistical range to save lives.

Local Coast Guard is far too thin and underfunded to be relied on.

To put things in perspective...
..*In the Philippines, there were 3044 reported deaths due to drowning in 2010....and many more unreported.
I think Robert is referring to political point scoring. Which in that case he is correct.
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Old 19-12-2017, 17:22   #34
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Re: Australian yacht sinks near Philippines

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Originally Posted by oldjags View Post
I don't think it makes anyone less diligent about the integrity of their boat. No one wants to lose their boat. But it (along with an EPIRB) might make people more willing to take voyages they might otherwise avoid out of caution.

As an example, there is no way I would have crossed the Caribbean non-stop from Key West to Cartagena without a life raft and EPIRB on board. I might have done it by island-hopping and coastal sailing with just a dinghy, but I would not have done the straight shot. And I was worried about the integrity of the boat the whole way!
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I don't think this is true. To me, it is like saying that one is less likely to maintain his automobile's brakes if it has airbags.
First, I didn't say this was my personal choice. In fact I always have a life raft on passages. However I am reporting what has been said by more than one, very experienced cruiser. One example, forum adviser Estarzinger who has done two circumnavigations and more serious, high latitude sailing than most.

I do have to agree with this thinking to some degree. It is just human nature to have somewhere in the back of your mind that the life raft is there.

Are you 100% certain this won't be a factor when trying to decide whether or not to spend the extra few thousand for an emergency rudder or install that $2000 super bilge pump or replace the rigging this year instead of next year?

Are you sure that after days in horrible weather fighting to save the boat that raft on deck won't prevent you from making that last, superhuman effort to plug the leak or jury rig a mast or unjam the rudder or whatever and instead just pop the raft and trigger the EPIRB?
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Old 19-12-2017, 18:20   #35
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Re: Australian yacht sinks near Philippines

It will take more than a life raft to save you in high latitudes. A survival suit or dry suit with very warm clothing would also be needed. You won't stay dry in a life raft and the water is really cold. Best not to suffer and leave the raft at home.
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Old 19-12-2017, 18:30   #36
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Re: Australian yacht sinks near Philippines

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
Are you 100% certain this won't be a factor when trying to decide whether or not to spend the extra few thousand for an emergency rudder or install that $2000 super bilge pump or replace the rigging this year instead of next year?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
Are you sure that after days in horrible weather fighting to save the boat that raft on deck won't prevent you from making that last, superhuman effort to plug the leak or jury rig a mast or unjam the rudder or whatever and instead just pop the raft and trigger the EPIRB?
No.

It was suggested earlier that you should always step UP into the life raft. As in- this vessel is going down, abandon ship. That decision seems straightforward.
However, in the dark chaos of a flooded cabin in heavy night weather, it could be very confusing indeed. Launching the raft could feel like the right thing to do.

I'll ask you a better question, skipmac, possibly more thread-related:
If you found yourself being tossed in the pitch black, inside a half-flooded, tilted cabin, not sure where your headlamp or companions were, water sloshing around...
Are you sure you could determine whether your damaged monohull had reached a wet but survivable floating equilibrium, or it whether was already taking you and your little air pocket to the bottom in your coffin?

Me?
Well, I would hope that I could think rationally in that situation. ("ok- we're still being tossed about, so we must still be on the surface")
However, I suspect that my decision-making in the darkness will be based upon fear and the primal need to get OUT of the dark trap, whether or not there was actually a life raft on board.

When survivors are found in a life raft in the sunshine, yet the boat is also oddly still floating, it can be quite mysterious. At first.
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Old 19-12-2017, 18:54   #37
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Re: Australian yacht sinks near Philippines

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyan View Post
Yes.


No.

It was suggested earlier that you should always step UP into the life raft. As in- this vessel is going down, abandon ship. That decision seems straightforward.
However, in the dark chaos of a flooded cabin in heavy night weather, it could be very confusing indeed. Launching the raft could feel like the right thing to do.

I'll ask you a better question, skipmac, possibly more thread-related:
If you found yourself being tossed in the pitch black, inside a half-flooded, tilted cabin, not sure where your headlamp or companions were, water sloshing around...
Are you sure you could determine whether your damaged monohull had reached a wet but survivable floating equilibrium, or it whether was already taking you and your little air pocket to the bottom in your coffin?

Me?
Well, I would hope that I could think rationally in that situation. ("ok- we're still being tossed about, so we must still be on the surface")
However, I suspect that my decision-making in the darkness will be based upon fear and the primal need to get OUT of the dark trap, whether or not there was actually a life raft on board.

When survivors are found in a life raft in the sunshine, yet the boat is also oddly still floating, it can be quite mysterious. At first.
This

It's just wrong to second guess those decisions. It all looks very different from the warmth of our armchairs (I'm actually behind the nav table, but still).
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Old 19-12-2017, 20:49   #38
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Re: Australian yacht sinks near Philippines

First, let me note that although I didn't phrase it that way, I was thinking of you in the plural, general sense and not specifically you cyan. And again I want to note that though my choice is to carry a raft, there are some sailors much more knowledgeable and experienced than I that chose to go without and I respect their reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyan View Post

It was suggested earlier that you should always step UP into the life raft. As in- this vessel is going down, abandon ship. That decision seems straightforward.

I would say not always. There are times when one should abandon ship asap. The easy, immediate example that comes to mind is an out of control fire.

However, in the dark chaos of a flooded cabin in heavy night weather, it could be very confusing indeed. Launching the raft could feel like the right thing to do.

Actually been in a boat with water over the floorboards in not heavy but rough weather in the middle of the night twice. Never thought about launching the raft but then I think we are both talking about boaters in general and not just you and me.

I'll ask you a better question, skipmac, possibly more thread-related:
If you found yourself being tossed in the pitch black, inside a half-flooded, tilted cabin, not sure where your headlamp or companions were, water sloshing around...
Are you sure you could determine whether your damaged monohull had reached a wet but survivable floating equilibrium, or it whether was already taking you and your little air pocket to the bottom in your coffin?

Again, speaking only for me, yes. First unless someone had gone overboard I can't conceive of how I would lose track of a crew member on a sailboat. That aside, if water was coming over the floorboards and getting deeper I would be focusing on keeping the boat afloat. Since I have over 100 g/m (usable not rated) emergency pumping capacity that should buy me some time. Then depending on a ton of variables that would determine when and how much, I would start devoting some resources to mayday and preparation for abandoning.

Me?
Well, I would hope that I could think rationally in that situation. ("ok- we're still being tossed about, so we must still be on the surface")
However, I suspect that my decision-making in the darkness will be based upon fear and the primal need to get OUT of the dark trap, whether or not there was actually a life raft on board.

Personally I think I have more primal fear of jumping into a small, rubber raft in the middle of the ocean than staying on a boat that is even more or less afloat. However I like to think that panic would not be an issue until I'm going down and taking the last breath. In my younger days I had a few hobbies (deep wreck diving, extreme cave diving, flying hang-gliders) where panic could kill you. I did test my limits a few times and managed to stay sane so far.

When survivors are found in a life raft in the sunshine, yet the boat is also oddly still floating, it can be quite mysterious. At first.

I like to think that this would never be me, but as Dockhead points out, one never knows what he/she will do when it all hits the fan.
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Old 19-12-2017, 21:25   #39
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Re: Australian yacht sinks near Philippines

" Since I have over 100 g/m"

Grams per metre?

Oh, I guess you mean gal/min

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Old 19-12-2017, 21:38   #40
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Re: Australian yacht sinks near Philippines

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Originally Posted by oldjags View Post

...

As an example, there is no way I would have crossed the Caribbean non-stop from Key West to Cartagena without a life raft and EPIRB on board. I might have done it by island-hopping and coastal sailing with just a dinghy, but I would not have done the straight shot. And I was worried about the integrity of the boat the whole way!

Wondering what kind of boat you were on to be worried about its integrity the whole way?
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Old 19-12-2017, 21:38   #41
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Re: Australian yacht sinks near Philippines

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
" Since I have over 100 g/m"

Grams per metre?

Oh, I guess you mean gal/min

It was an IQ test and you passed.
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Old 19-12-2017, 22:05   #42
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Re: Australian yacht sinks near Philippines

My thoughts are with the families as well!

Yet again different news articles vary considerably, the one cited above and the Sydney Morning Herald for example:

Australian sailor dies in yacht mishap years after wife's boating death

In one they were clinging on to a life buoy for 6 days after capsizing (Mindanews) in the latter they clung to a dinghy for four days. Then the boat got recovered, which, yes, reminds us to only ever step UP into a liferaft.

Interesting to see, yet again, the different reactions between one rescue of three "seasoned" men vs two "dingbats off the coast of Japan"... just saying.

Would be good to hear some more details from these survivors, too, maybe another Sailing Anarchy podcast?

What's also worrying around the whole EPIRB story is that "PO3 Evelyn Tidula, of the Tandag police" mentioned nothing about the Philippines' efforts to search for them. It sounded like it was two fishermen on their way home who just happened to come across them.
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Old 19-12-2017, 22:09   #43
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Re: Australian yacht sinks near Philippines

Popping a raft is one thing but then getting in and cutting yourself free from a still floating main vessel is something else again.
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Old 19-12-2017, 23:00   #44
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Re: Australian yacht sinks near Philippines

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
Hi TJ,



Actually it isn't unheard of for serious, experienced cruisers to eschew a life raft, for several reasons.



The most common is the idea that on some level, even subconsciously, it makes one less diligent in insuring the integrity of the boat.



Another reason is that some cruisers prefer not to cause others to risk their lives in a rescue of someone that chose to go cruising for the fun and adventure of it. This however usually applies more to the use of an EPIRB than exclusively a life raft.

To be clear, the rescuers live for the thrill of the rescue. Its why they are rescuers.
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Old 19-12-2017, 23:08   #45
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Re: Australian yacht sinks near Philippines

cyan
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cyan

However, in the dark chaos of a flooded cabin in heavy night weather, it could be very confusing indeed. Launching the raft could feel like the right thing to do.
Actually been in a boat with water over the floorboards in not heavy but rough weather in the middle of the night twice. Never thought about launching the raft but then I think we are both talking about boaters in general and not just you and me.
I assume you had working pumps and lighting to see the soggy floorboards.
I doubt many here would have considered launching the raft either.

I'll ask you a better question, skipmac, possibly more thread-related:
If you found yourself being tossed in the pitch black, inside a half-flooded, tilted cabin, not sure where your headlamp or companions were, water sloshing around...
Are you sure you could determine whether your damaged monohull had reached a wet but survivable floating equilibrium, or it whether was already taking you and your little air pocket to the bottom in your coffin?
Again, speaking only for me, yes. First unless someone had gone overboard I can't conceive of how I would lose track of a crew member on a sailboat. That aside, if water was coming over the floorboards and getting deeper I would be focusing on keeping the boat afloat. Since I have over 100 g/m (usable not rated) emergency pumping capacity that should buy me some time. Then depending on a ton of variables that would determine when and how much, I would start devoting some resources to mayday and preparation for abandoning.
Never mind the floorboards that are now vertical. (say you were knocked down and demasted) I'm suggesting a major breech, like from a hull-gashing broken mast or a failed salon window that is now your floor, cabin already half full of water, you're being thrown about, oh and it is PITCH BLACK Are you now 10 meters under, or still on the surface? Are you sure?
Is your pump electric? Gasoline engine? Can you get 100 GPM flowing with a flooded (shorted) battery bank, hull sideways? (personally I like your gear, but could it be deployed sideways?)

Me?
Well, I would hope that I could think rationally in that situation. ("ok- we're still being tossed about, so we must still be on the surface")
However, I suspect that my decision-making in the darkness will be based upon fear and the primal need to get OUT of the dark trap, whether or not there was actually a life raft on board.
Personally I think I have more primal fear of jumping into a small, rubber raft in the middle of the ocean than staying on a boat that is even more or less afloat. However I like to think that panic would not be an issue until I'm going down and taking the last breath. In my younger days I had a few hobbies (deep wreck diving, extreme cave diving, flying hang-gliders) where panic could kill you. I did test my limits a few times and managed to stay sane so far.
Fair enough, but in my scenario you are assuming the ability to determine "more or less afloat" in the pitch black, while being tossed about in a large storm, with substantially much more water than just "coming over the floorboards".

When survivors are found in a life raft in the sunshine, yet the boat is also oddly still floating, it can be quite mysterious. At first.
I like to think that this would never be me, but as Dockhead points out, one never knows what he/she will do when it all hits the fan.
I'm betting it's not me either, but in thinking through various situations I realize that we rely only on house batteries for pumps and don't have enough backup lighting...


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