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Old 05-05-2018, 17:44   #16
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Re: We're doin' it!

Trust me, I have been down that road.
Well built, trumps nearly new any day, plus at your stated age of a boat you want, is right at the age where the electronics become questionable and may need replacing, as well as pumps etc.
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Old 06-05-2018, 05:55   #17
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Re: We're doin' it!

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Trust me, I have been down that road.
Well built, trumps nearly new any day, plus at your stated age of a boat you want, is right at the age where the electronics become questionable and may need replacing, as well as pumps etc.
Well-built and well-maintained trump new, I agree 100%. Plus it is getting harder and harder to find well-built new cruising boats in an affordable price range. Just look at the debacle at Oyster recently.

Boats, even well-built ones, start rotting the moment they are produced and need constant upkeep and use to keep them in bristol shape. The marine environment is harsh and even a boat that has been pulled out onto the hard will still continue to slowly degrade even if perfectly stored, all the while not being used these degradations will not be noticed or attended to like a boat that is being used constantly or lived-on.

The idea that a "brand new boat" will not have any issues is sadly laughable. And with the corners that have been cut on by many modern production boatbuilders (and even formerly well-respected bluewater high-end boats) it is true that "they don't make them like they used to."

On the other hand. A poorly-maintained boat, even one that was very well-built to start with can a total shambles. Even one that someone didn't really understand what steps were necessary and proper to keep a boat up can be ruined by a couple of seasons of deferred maintenance. I took a seminar with Nigel Calder and he relayed a story about an engine survey he did for a friend who was looking at buying a not-so-old boat. The previous owner was a Coast Guard guy and thought he was doing everything right and properly maintaining the engine but he missed a few key things and the engine was a real mess requiring a fairly extensive rebuild that was not obvious to the untrained eye.

Never say never. Every time I see someone say something like "we want to buy new/newer" to avoid issues on older boats" red flags start waving in my mind.
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Old 06-05-2018, 07:45   #18
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Re: We're doin' it!

My story.
I had no idea for sure if we really wanted to cruise, and as I had never sat foot on a sailboat before, I certainly didn’t want a project, I wanted to buy a turn key boat.
I knew that wasn’t new, cause a new Boat isn’t ever really fitted out.
Plus just in case I just couldn’t adapt to life in single digit speeds, I wanted a boat that I could sell and not take too bad a bath.
So we bought a 3 yr old popular production boat as a learner boat. This Boat was owned by an EE and was very well maintained and fitted out, they were selling cause they bought bigger to live aboard.
Since it was so well fitted out with better sails, feathering prop, the works, I was paying more than the boat sold for new, but figured at three yrs old, it was just broken in, should be zero problems, right?

For the survey I found a surveyor that was a Supervisor on the production floor at the plant this boat was built at, a very knowledgeable person.
In the Survey, we found a serious hull defect, but it was the wet deck core that really scared me away.
This boat was manufactured with those issues, it had never been grounded etc, and was very well maintained by someone who knew what they were doing, but even that couldn’t overcome poor build quality.


We ended up with a much better built, but much older Boat, it was 27 when we bought her, and yes she had to be refit. Which I have come to find out I would have likely done even to a new Boat, cause even if they were well equipped, likely not with the equipment I would want, and I’ve not seen a new Boat with a windlass and ground tackle that was correctly sized for my taste etc.
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Old 06-05-2018, 14:45   #19
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Re: We're doin' it!

We haven't ruled out older boats, but our concern is with re-sale given we'll likely sell in 3 years, if not sooner. My understanding is that newer, low-hour production boats will sell faster and at higher prices than older boats. Feel free to correct me with data if you're able...
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Old 06-05-2018, 15:07   #20
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Re: We're doin' it!

Well, you might and you might not want to sell in 3 years. You guys might decide to home school the high school years; you might decide to liveaboard and let high school take place on land. I do understand that isn't what the plan is now, but cruising is an interactive process and it may change you and your thinking in ways you do not now anticipate.

Particularly so, if at the end of 3 years, you know exactly what else you want to do to your boat. People seem to bond with their boats, not exactly practical, but it often happens.

Anything 3 years from now, well, it's unpredictable.

Just mho, but don't worry about selling it, you may want to continue a low footprint lifestyle, and if you do, and you've maintained it well, you will be justified in asking a higher price for it as a better example of a type, or if you do buy something unusual, if it's a good boat, a buyer will come along.

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Old 06-05-2018, 15:15   #21
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Re: We're doin' it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ascarswell View Post
We haven't ruled out older boats, but our concern is with re-sale given we'll likely sell in 3 years, if not sooner. My understanding is that newer, low-hour production boats will sell faster and at higher prices than older boats. Feel free to correct me with data if you're able...


Absolutely not.
Older boats are close to depreciating out. New boats lose value like mad the first few years, just like cars or airplanes.
My 30 yr old Boat will sell for about what she did new, now of course with inflation she has decreased in value, but at least Im not losing 10% per year for the first five years or similar. It’s a sliding scale of course, not flat like 10% per year.
However even if you sell for what you paid for it, your losing money of course as there are listing fees etc.
A boat is not a good investment, but buying new or nearly so and then selling in three years is a sure fire way to take a beating.
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Old 06-05-2018, 15:55   #22
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Re: We're doin' it!

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Our initial parameters:

- $200k or less if possible; more in the cruising kitty is a good thing! :-)
- mono-hull 46'-54'
- catamaran 40'-44'
- shallow draft (5'6" or less)
- prefer "newer" (2000+), but would consider the right re-fit 'classic' boat with most or all new systems
- Florida...(we're in Fort Lauderdale), but for the right boat at the right price, we'll jump on a plane
- newer sails, rigging, electronics, canvas, etc.
- nice tender set up
- solar array
- gen set (low hours) & A/C
- low engine hours
- bow thruster, especially on a cat ;-)
- safety & emergency equip
- clean
- cared for
- did I mention, clean?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascarswell
If someone's reading this and has a 44'+ mono-hull or a 40'-44' that's less than 10-years old for sale, please reach out...I'd like to hear about it!
200k USD / 165k Euro may possibly buy you an older excharter cat in that size and age, with tired equipment.
But you won't find a 40-44 ft cat less than ten years old that fits your wishlist and budget. Maybe homebuilt one-offs but not a major manufacturer.


Your whislist of new everything, genset & A/C, low engine hours, cared for, etc is quite demanding. Boats that meet similar criteria sell for a significant premium over bare charter boats.
Of course you can have all that in a cat, but not for 200k USD. Maybe if you double your budget.


So just focus on the mono market.
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Old 06-05-2018, 16:11   #23
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Re: We're doin' it!

Yeah - I'm seeing that, the more earnestly I begin searching, Rabbi. My concern (amongst others) with monohull is resale. Don't they tend to sit on the market longer than cats? Would I be better to spend a bit more ($275k) on a cat but sell for less of a loss and more quickly when we're ready to cash out?
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Old 06-05-2018, 16:21   #24
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Re: We're doin' it!

Depends on the boat....our boat has an almost cult like following, hence their retaining their value...there are only 55 in the world, and most have circumnavigated, hence the demand. Ours has not circumnavigated by the way.

You have to carefully research a boat you have decided to look at....you are spending a heck of a lot of money....and resale down the way is important at the time of purchase....that is why we bought what we did.

It is a very tough decision to make, good luck, keep the faith, do what you feel is right. But remember, research is very important.....

And have some fun with it....don't get too uptight, and enjoy looking.
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Old 06-05-2018, 16:54   #25
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Re: We're doin' it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ascarswell View Post
Yeah - I'm seeing that, the more earnestly I begin searching, Rabbi. My concern (amongst others) with monohull is resale. Don't they tend to sit on the market longer than cats? Would I be better to spend a bit more ($275k) on a cat but sell for less of a loss and more quickly when we're ready to cash out?
I have no clue about mono market at all. I am no insider and know the cat market only from buying and selling my own boats.
Just look at yachtworld, discard the cheapest listings you find of a particular model (there is a reason they are cheap) and you have a rough idea what the market is like.

275k USD can buy you a decent Lagoon 380, but you will have a hard time to find one that meets all or most your criteria. If you want most equipment new you may have to buy new. A 380 with all the equipment you listed easily costs 400k USD.
For a 40-44ft cat you need way more money.


This one was a very good deal, but on the wrong side of the pond, and also not matching all your criteria.

If you want to get in and out without loosing a ton of money you need a bargain. You can only find that if you are open minded. It could be smaller, older, dirtier than what you are looking for.
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Old 07-05-2018, 04:39   #26
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Re: We're doin' it!

One thing I forgot to mention: Two years ago 200k USD would have bought you a nice cat but the prices have picked up and at the same time the USD has weakened significantly.

Something like 200-220k might buy you a 10 year old 380 that is cruise ready but requires compromises from your side. Maybe she has higher engine hours, no generator, no solar, etc. Certainly no bow thruster as I have never seen one on a 380.
Or you could buy an older Lavezzi for a similar price in good condition but needing some limited refit.
With lots of luck there are other boats available in that price range as well, but rarely so. For example I have never seen a FP Lipari for sale at 200k USD.


Maybe you should first decide what you really need vs want.
Do you really need things like a generator and A/C or is this just an optional wish? Just these two easily make a difference of 25k USD.

Personally I don't want a generator or A/C on my boat. We once owned a Lagoon 410 that came with generator, A/C, large watermaker, dive compressor, huge battery bank, full SSB installation, etc. Everything was big, heavy, expensive, and noisy. Original cost to install was around 60k EUR.


Our following cats were more "naked" when bought, and I outfitted them to my liking: Plenty of solar, smaller but good quality battery bank, small quiet watermaker, no generator or A/C, satphone instead of SSB, etc.
Way cheaper and easier to install and maintain, lighter, and quiet.
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Old 07-05-2018, 06:34   #27
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Re: We're doin' it!

Great advice - thanks so much, Rabbi!

For clarity, my original post included items on my 'wish list' not my 'must-have list.' And I didn't ever suggest I'm going to find 'new everything' for $200k...I'm not that naive. I'm generally handy and will not afraid of putting some elbow grease and or funds into a boat that's almost there, but not interested in a neglected or abused boat in need of a complete overhaul, hence my comments about a 'clean' boat.

Interestingly, the intention of this post was to connect with others who might actually have a suitable boat for sale, but I really haven't had much of a response in that regard. But lots of opinions and advice have got me thinking, so thank you for sharing.
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Old 07-05-2018, 10:32   #28
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Re: We're doin' it!

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For clarity, my original post included items on my 'wish list' not my 'must-have list.' And I didn't ever suggest I'm going to find 'new everything' for $200k...I'm not that naive. I'm generally handy and will not afraid of putting some elbow grease and or funds into a boat that's almost there, but not interested in a neglected or abused boat in need of a complete overhaul, hence my comments about a 'clean' boat.
OK, to me your intiial post sounded different, as you were looking for a relatively new boat but still mentioned even newer systems, sails, electronics, etc.

If you are just after some decent boat around 200k that is fit for cruising and doesn't give you major shocks when its time to sell I think that is entirely possible.

For cats I'd suggest you limit your search to the big three manufacturers, as one-offs or niche manufacturers can possibly take longer to sell and you have no defined resale value.

For the big three this is not a problem, they have their market. A Lagoon in acceptable condition will always sell for a reasonable price (unless its located in a distance third world country)


For a Lagoon the Lagoon 380 S2 (i.e. 2005 and younger) might fit the bill, if its big enough for your needs. Nice boat, proven circumnavigtor, decent space, good and predictable resale value. Plus I'm biased :-)
If you need larger, then maybe you can find one of the last Lagoon 410. Lagoon 39, 400, 421, 44, etc are out of question due to budget constraints.

For Fountaine Pajot the Lavezzi is the model to look at, and the Belize. The others are too small, too old, or outside the budget. Maybe with lots of luck if you stretch the budget you can find a FP Lipari.
If you can find a cruise ready Lipari anywhere near 200k please tell me ;-)

I'm not a fan of the Leopards for purely personal reasons (bridgedeck clearance, open cockpits, balsa core below waterline). They have their following but personally I just don't care about them.

You won't find one of the newer condomaran style cats of the big three for your budget, unless its a dismasted and sunken post-Irma project.


I'd suggest you make a list of features that are must-have, and an ordered list of wanted features. Forget the bowthruster as maybe 1% of all small-medium sized cats have this.
Maybe decide if you are a mono or multi type of person. Personally I would not exchange my 38ft cat for 50ft mono.

Post your list in a new thread and maybe you will get better results.


My boat for example fits less than 80% of your initial list, and is smaller than what you are looking for. So personally I did not even think about offering it to you, as it is just too far from what you are asking for. Others might think the same.
OK, and the other reason is our cat is not (yet) for sale.
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Old 07-05-2018, 10:42   #29
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Re: We're doin' it!

Thanks again Rabbi! Great advice. Bow thruster criteria was solely for monos, by the way. ;-)

I'm a huge fan of Lagoons, and Leopard/FP are a close tie for 2nd/3rd. I am tending toward your preference for a smaller cat over a 50' mono. And if we go cat, it'll be one of the big three manufacturers. I'd love to find just one notch larger than a Lagoon 380, and thinking if I throw a little more money at it, I might be able to do so. I'll try reposting with a little wider net and see what happens. By the way, I don't suppose you're near Fort Lauderdale...I'd love to meet and talk through living aboard a Lagoon 380! :-)

Cheers,
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Old 07-05-2018, 12:28   #30
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Re: We're doin' it!

Getting something cruise ready a tad larger than a 380 is of course possible, but it gets hard if you want younger than 10 years @ 200k USD. Maybe 15 years old and 200-230k should work out OK.

Larger doesn't necessarily make for more volume.
A Lagoon 410 is a very sturdy boat and slightly bigger volume compared to a 380, but of course does no offer anywhere near the room of a recent model like the Lagoon 40. And since its been out of production for some time its getting rare.

The FP Lavezzi is also slightly bigger than a 380, but doesn't offer much more room / volume. To get significantly more room you need to go for a FP Belize at least, but newer ones are relatively expensive.


To me the next step up and the best compromise between volume and sailing capabilities of more recent models is the Lagoon 400 or the FP Lipari. You need luck to find these in decent condition within your budget.
The Lagoon 400 wins in terms of volume, but personally I would prefer a Lipari (after having owned two Lagoon and one FP).

Remember to post your request on the multihull section, that should trigger more responses.

Good luck with your search!
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