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Old 13-03-2013, 20:30   #31
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Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision

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Originally Posted by Cotemar View Post
Some Cats just keep floating until someone brings it home to dry out.

Catamaran calamity but she is still floating.

YIKES! It had no mast, the salon door was open; it was swamped. Clearly a Fontaine Pajot, French-built cat in the upper thirty to lower forty foot range. You don’t see this everyday!
I inquired around the island the next day to learn the cat was abandoned in terrible weather somewhere near the Bahamas and was left dismasted to its own devices. It had just been found the day before, seventeen miles north of San Andres in the open sea, drifting westward in the currents and trade winds.
However disturbing the scene, the incident is a testament to the “unsinkable” rating of European-built catamarans. Brands such as Lagoon, Fontaine Pajot, and Catana utilize watertight bulkheads, foam sandwich construction, and other buoyant materials that actually qualify their cats to be certified unsinkable.
When you think about it, that’s pretty darn nifty! Not all cats are created equal and some catamaran brands are not certified to meet unsinkable standards and will not remain floating if totally swamped. Those “Brand X” cats will plummet to the bottom if they take on too much water. It’s a good question to ask when shopping for a cruising catamaran.
And the proof is in the pudding. The Fontaine Pajot full of water drifted across the WILD and rough central and western Caribbean and there she sits, still on the surface.
I'm surprised how much of a bow down angle that boat has. I'd have expected the weight of the engines to cause a stern down attitude.
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Old 13-03-2013, 20:32   #32
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Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision

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I don't know if this has been posted yet, but it's very sobering. A table of the flooding rate per hole diameter, by depth below waterline.

It comes in faster than you might think. A 4" hole 10" below the waterline will give you 1000 gallons per minute.

http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/Hole...odingtable.pdf
I think the table has depth in feet so it's 10 feet not 10 inches. Most holes start out in the 1-3' depth range. Even then it seems clear the highest priority has to be on finding the hole and stemming the flow. Minutes (even seconds) matter at these flow rates and it's easy to lose track of time in an emergency. It will become impossible to find the source of the water long before the boat is in danger of foundering. If multiple crew are available then starting big pumps is a very close second priority. But no pump carried on board will by itself save a boat with even a small 1 inch hole 3' below the waterline unless the flow is stemmed by the crew.

Coincidentally, Steve D'Antonio will be giving a damage control lecture at US Sailing's Safety at Sea event in Annapolis the weekend of April 6-7.

Schedule
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Old 13-03-2013, 20:49   #33
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Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision

This must be a hoax because cats don't sink.
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Old 14-03-2013, 02:47   #34
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Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision

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This must be a hoax because cats don't sink.
I can still see it - so that would suggest it hasnt sunk?
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Old 14-03-2013, 04:05   #35
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Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision

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I think the table has depth in feet so it's 10 feet not 10 inches.
You're right, Dan -- depth is in feet. I didn't read the fine print of that table properly.

Still, a 4 inch hole 2 feet below the waterline will give you 255 gpm (15,000 gph), a pretty shocking inflow rate.
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Old 14-03-2013, 04:21   #36
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Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision

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This must be a hoax because cats don't sink.
I think you will find that the cat is actually fine - well, at least it will be when it hits Yachtworld .

Regarding holes in boats, standard bilge pumps are intended to remove water from bilges that has arrived from "normal" use and not as an emergency response to a hole in the hull! - and for that intended use they are perfectly adequate, indeed a manual pump is still ok for that (just a bit more tiring!).....

.........when you have a hole in the hull you need a BIG pump, but most importantly you need to stem the water inflow ASAP. Every 3 foot down the water pressure doubles, so a 2" hole becomes the equivalent of a 4" hole for the volume of water that comes in - and to match that you need the water to be pumping out at the same volume..........broadly speaking if the hose on the end of your pump is not bigger in diamater than the hole in the hull you will lose the battle!........."we're gonna need a bigger pump" ........if the hole is measured in feet then IMO you are fooked , if solely relying on any pumps.

I would favour watertight compartments as the most useful way of dealing with a hole in the hull...........not neccesarily sealed 24/7 (but capable of - even with leakage, i.e. a locker that when sealed still dribbles water out is way better than the 2" hole in the hull "inside" the locker!) or even half height bulkheads (Titanic style!).......a problem contained is not quite a problem solved, but a good start.
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Old 14-03-2013, 05:03   #37
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Not the first nor the last Leopard to sink. Or Lagoon for that matter.some will some wont. But will probably be slightly more buoyant than most monos ;0)
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Old 14-03-2013, 05:35   #38
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Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision

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Not the first nor the last Leopard to sink. Or Lagoon for that matter.some will some wont. But will probably be slightly more buoyant than most monos ;0)
This may really be a true statement as only the lightweight cats will have enough buoyancy to keep them floating.
Leopards are the heaviest cats followed by Lagoons.
Fountaine Pajot (FP) is the lightest of the production cats.

My cat is approximate Light Displacement Weight 10,000 lbs or 5 tons and has 5 large pieces of foam incases into the boat.
1 large foam in each bow
1 large foam under the mast
1 large foam under each queen bed
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Old 14-03-2013, 05:38   #39
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Where are all these sunk Lagoons?

Apart from on the bottom
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Old 14-03-2013, 05:42   #40
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Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision

LMAO screw sinking!
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Old 14-03-2013, 05:59   #41
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Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision

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Where are all these sunk Lagoons?

Apart from on the bottom
Yachtworld, buyers beware. Lagoon 450 just 9 months old only $150,000 usd. A deal you just can not pass up

2012 Lagoon Cat Sail Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Like CarFax we boaters need BoatFax.
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Old 14-03-2013, 06:10   #42
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Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision

Just as there are unsinkable monohulls (albeit a minority), there are cats that can sink (abeit a minority). My cat also had holes in the originally watertight bulkheads forward for electrical cables for the owner-added electric windlass and aft for wiring from the owner-added solar panels, wind generator and radar. As Pallaran points out, these can be and should be sealed.

Another option for increased pump capacity is to install a Y-valve on the raw water intake to the diesels with a hose into the bilge and a strainer. Since most engine compartments are sealed off from the interior, unless there was damage to the hull/saildrive/seacocks in the engine compartment that is causing the water ingress, these compartments should remain dry and the diesels operational even with the bilge flooded. Again, caution should be taken to ensure that the hole where the hose passes through the bulkhead from the engine compartment to the bilge is properly sealed.

Brad
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Old 14-03-2013, 06:32   #43
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Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision

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Originally Posted by Cotemar View Post
This may really be a true statement as only the lightweight cats will have enough buoyancy to keep them floating.
Leopards are the heaviest cats followed by Lagoons.
Fountaine Pajot (FP) is the lightest of the production cats.
Entering a minefield, you never really know till you get them on Load Cells, and not on a travelift scale either - actual loadcells, such as we use for OMR rating.

But based on Manuafactures specs (which are almost certainly going to be very lightships), of the french production cats at around 40-45 feet the FP is a long way from the lightest in the bunch - the Outremer 45

Lagoon 421 (actually 41 ft) 12.2 tonne
FP 44 (actually 43 Ft) 10.5 tonne
Outremer 45 (actually 45 ft!!) 7.25 tonne

The outremer is longer and lighter - no surprise that its faster.
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Old 14-03-2013, 06:39   #44
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Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision

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Entering a minefield, you never really know till you get them on Load Cells, and not on a travelift scale either - actual loadcells, such as we use for OMR rating.

But based on Manuafactures specs (which are almost certainly going to be very lightships), of the french production cats at around 40-45 feet the FP is a long way from the lightest in the bunch - the Outremer 45

Lagoon 421 (actually 41 ft) 12.2 tonne
FP 44 (actually 43 Ft) 10.5 tonne
Outremer 45 (actually 45 ft!!) 7.25 tonne

The outremer is longer and lighter - no surprise that its faster.
I agree, but I was talking production boats.
Outremer would be inline with Gunboat, but not really a production boat
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Old 14-03-2013, 06:43   #45
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I agree, but I was talking production boats.
Outremer would be inline with Gunboat, but not really a production boat
Outremer is definetly a production boat but not a mass produced charter boat.
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