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Old 13-03-2013, 09:12   #16
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Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision

Excerpt from Rolf in 10foot of water.The help and emotional support we received from everybody in the next few days was enormous. It helped us a lot dealing with the trauma. The first night we were worried that the fuel tanks with 200+ gallons (900 litres) of diesel would rupture. We could here the wind pick up more and the wave size increasing overnight. Up till then I had hoped that with the falling tide the additional damage would not be too big, and the salvage vessel was already underway. However, by the next morning she had been pounded over the reef into 10 feet of water. In the process the starboard hull had developed a hole the full length of the two bath rooms (4m or 12') and bout 1 m (3') wide. Looking down the stairs gave a pretty view of the sea bottom. The rudders had been ripped off, but the shafts were in place. The port sail drive was pushed in a little bit, so it leaked. The port fwd compartment was bone dry. The water was above the cockpit table and the stern was exposed to the waves coming over the reef, with the water splashing up to the ceiling .

My point is with a fwd and aft compartment intact as in both the Lagoon and Leopard designs i find it hard to understand them sinking unless those compartments were themselves all vented.

Wiring holes etc will only allow slow ingress of water but likewise air must displace, that on a cat is a slow process.

We are talking of a modern boat.

Cheers
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Old 13-03-2013, 09:17   #17
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Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision

It looks like most of the posters on this tread are cat owners so this is relevent.

What Brad just posted about water tight bulkheads not really being water tight should be checked on all cats. There have been two cats sunk or flooded due to electrical conduits allowing water to freely flow from one compartment to another. After reading about these, I inspected Palarran and did find three such conduits running through my engine compartment into my cabin area. I don't think the flow would have been enough to sink the boat if someone was aboard but would if unoccupied. I filled mine with silicone.

Also, why on a boat this size you would not have a super large capacity Rule pump with 8' of hose and 50' long power wiring for emergency use is beyond me.
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Old 13-03-2013, 09:21   #18
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Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision

Pallaran you are right, I'm thinking a 240 volt sump pump connected directly to the generator in each hull with 2 inch hosing to under bridgedeck so they alone can be activated from the genset without going to the main board and will run till the genset either runs out of ships fuel or is drowned... Cheers
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Old 13-03-2013, 09:26   #19
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Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision

12 volt or 240 volt - which would be better? Now that is one question that hasn't been discussed on the CF before (as far as I remember).
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Old 13-03-2013, 09:36   #20
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Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision

Since Rolf's unfortunate loss i've been re-newing insurers and for the Atlantic crossing that we plan on doing in 2014 they said they required 1500GPH (Warranted)bilge pumps to be fitted.

Almost every grounding that you read about they await some salvage pumps so to satisfy the obvious my line of thought goes like this :-
1. The gen-set is level with the decks.
2. The gen-set is fed by the ships tanks.
3. A 240 volt submersible sump pump far out performs any chandler's bilge pump.
4. Fit 2 with 2 or 3 inch piping out letting high up under the bridge deck.
5. Wire directly to the gen-set without going to the board below by a selector switch beside the gen-set.
6. Optimise GPH to match output of gen-set in our case 6kva at 240 volts.

It would buy precious moments and be superior to 12 volt where the batteries are mounted in the bilge anyway?

Just my thoughts bought on by recent occurrences and insurers requirements.

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Old 13-03-2013, 10:13   #21
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Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision

The previous owner of Palarran had quite a few bilge pumps fitted. I have two 2000 gph pumps per hull in the main cabin. In addition I have one 2000 gph in each engine compartment and one 500 gph pump in each stern compartment. I also have an additional 2000 gph pump with a short hose attached so I can run it to a port hole. All of these do require 12 volts though. If we loose 12 volts, I guess it is manning the manual pumps and buckets. I have not seen 240 volt pumps with very high capacity.

For my Atlantic crossing we went with the mantra "Keep the water on the outside, the sailors on the inside, and the mast in the air". Repeat daily, hourly when in a gale. My insurance didn't have any pump requirements but who cares - you have to have it.

Lagoon4us, I hope to run (not literaly) into you this summer. We will be in Croatia for June and the Ionian's for July. Our plan is nearly in place and I'm going to post it on my Croatia thread. I hope you will review it and give me some last bits of advice.
David.
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Old 13-03-2013, 10:21   #22
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Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision

David we are heading for Greece around mid July stopping at Corfu for slipping etc. Absolutely want to catch up. Another Aussie Col Darling on board a Lagoon 440 will take our place here 'Finally My Darling' is the boats name.

Great Mantra!!!!!!

Frank
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Old 13-03-2013, 10:55   #23
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Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagoon4us View Post
Pallaran you are right, I'm thinking a 240 volt sump pump connected directly to the generator in each hull with 2 inch hosing to under bridgedeck so they alone can be activated from the genset without going to the main board and will run till the genset either runs out of ships fuel or is drowned... Cheers
Not a bad idea. I bought a cheap 110v pump that will run from my Honda 2000 generator just as an absolute last-ditch, desperate measure in case all other options have failed.

Here's a source for high-volume, submersible pumps that could be powered by most on-board generators, and will move a lot more water than a 12v pump. Submersible Water Pumps 80 GPM & Above - Contractors Direct
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Old 13-03-2013, 10:58   #24
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Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision

Plumbed in ready to go with no mucking around, one in each hull flick the switch start the gen-set and pump away. Pumps such as these will out do any 12volt pump and will keep going well after the batteries are engulfed....

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Old 13-03-2013, 15:47   #25
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Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision

Perhaps the owner of the Leopard had really good insurance and didn't like the way the boat had been repaired
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Old 13-03-2013, 16:32   #26
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Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision

I don't know if this has been posted yet, but it's very sobering. A table of the flooding rate per hole diameter, by depth below waterline.

It comes in faster than you might think. A 4" hole 10" below the waterline will give you 1000 gallons per minute.

http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/Hole...odingtable.pdf
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Old 13-03-2013, 17:32   #27
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Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision

Some Cats just keep floating until someone brings it home to dry out.

Catamaran calamity but she is still floating.

YIKES! It had no mast, the salon door was open; it was swamped. Clearly a Fontaine Pajot, French-built cat in the upper thirty to lower forty foot range. You don’t see this everyday!
I inquired around the island the next day to learn the cat was abandoned in terrible weather somewhere near the Bahamas and was left dismasted to its own devices. It had just been found the day before, seventeen miles north of San Andres in the open sea, drifting westward in the currents and trade winds.
However disturbing the scene, the incident is a testament to the “unsinkable” rating of European-built catamarans. Brands such as Lagoon, Fontaine Pajot, and Catana utilize watertight bulkheads, foam sandwich construction, and other buoyant materials that actually qualify their cats to be certified unsinkable.
When you think about it, that’s pretty darn nifty! Not all cats are created equal and some catamaran brands are not certified to meet unsinkable standards and will not remain floating if totally swamped. Those “Brand X” cats will plummet to the bottom if they take on too much water. It’s a good question to ask when shopping for a cruising catamaran.
And the proof is in the pudding. The Fontaine Pajot full of water drifted across the WILD and rough central and western Caribbean and there she sits, still on the surface.
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Old 13-03-2013, 19:05   #28
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The proof is in the French pudding!

Good to have confidence in your boat to stay with it instead of jumping into a little liferaft
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Old 13-03-2013, 19:43   #29
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The proof is in the French pudding!

Good to have confidence in your boat to stay with it instead of jumping into a little liferaft
More than one report of a Lagoon sinking?
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Old 13-03-2013, 20:11   #30
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Re: Leopard 46 sinks after collision

There are many many many stories of cats left abandoned turning up later. From RAMTHA (a simpson) in Pacific Rescue/NZ Queens Birthday storm to the Spirited 380 in the coral sea last year, to A fastback 43 off Lord Howe some years ago - the owner went a little off the planet and actively tried to sink the boat and it still wouldn't go down. The sinking of a reasonably built cat is by far the exception rather than the rule.
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