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Old 25-04-2013, 16:20   #106
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger
I think it is an excellent text.

Great job! THX for sharing!

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Old 25-04-2013, 16:27   #107
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

[QUOTE=boatman61;1220257]
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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Well, that wasn't my issue with your post. I really am the one who talked about the n/ne part of the Gulf Stream, and it did relate to storms near the shore -- hence the suggeestion to go EAST out of the Gulf Stream if one can. QUOTE]

N-NE part of the Gulf Stream US of A... that's kinda up Hatteras way and tough to get out off going East... a lot easier down Florida way...
I think Beaufort NC might have some objections to any claims as to Tampa being the 'Lightening Capital'... seen some awesome displays up that way..

SIGH ... YES, Boatman. I really do think ALL the people here can look at their charts and figure out 1) if they're in the Gulf Stream and 2) where they are in the Gulf Stream. You seem determined to try to bury me in extraneous facts.

As I said in my ORIGINAL post on the topic, if you're in the Gulf Stream where it runs north, and the storm is from the north, getting out of there will help things considerably, but you want to go to the East, and not toward the shore. There's absolutely nothing inaccurate about that, and a smart person can extrapolate the circumstances to other situations.

Doesn't much matter what another city thinks. Of course all cities in the US have seen spectacular lightning. Honestly, I would appreciate it if you didn't comb through my posts looking for things to nit-pick.

We could debate this, but we would both look like idiots, so I'm not going to play. Anything is debatable, including this -- Lightning capital of the nation

My point THERE wasn't about lightning, but about the propensity for pretty severe storms to develop very rapidly -- off both coasts of Florida. The nit-picking obscures the real conversation.
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Old 25-04-2013, 16:35   #108
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

I can only add that sometimes a boat and her crew may be asked to go from the 'bad weather' into the 'survival sailing' mode very suddenly.

Thus, it is wise, in any bad seas (or when such conditions are, or should be, expected) to keep the boat and her crew in 'storm ready' condition.

I say this because our worst sea adventure happened in an otherwise 'regular storm' conditions. We thought we were doing fine, we did not get any warning, next thing we got knocked hard, well down beyond horizontal.

I think if we were fully 'battened' down then the damage (to the boat, and to her drivers' ego) would have been much less.

PS We did violate one of the no-no rules given by Esratzinger. That's how I know now the rule is right.

Cheers,
b.
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Old 25-04-2013, 16:48   #109
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
I can only add that sometimes a boat and her crew may be asked to go from the 'bad weather' into the 'survival sailing' mode very suddenly.

Thus, it is wise, in any bad seas (or when such conditions are, or should be, expected) to keep the boat and her crew in 'storm ready' condition.

I say this because our worst sea adventure happened in an otherwise 'regular storm' conditions. We thought we were doing fine, we did not get any warning, next thing we got knocked hard, well down beyond horizontal.

I think if we were fully 'battened' down then the damage (to the boat, and to her drivers' ego) would have been much less.

PS We did violate one of the no-no rules given by Esratzinger. That's how I know now the rule is right.

Cheers,
b.

Things go wrong in the heat of the moment too. In one of the "Good Old Boat" races in Tampa Bay several years ago, winds were gusting to 40 or more. One of the boats was changing a sail, and forgot to close the forward hatch. Something went wrong, and either a headsail or a spinnaker -- I don't recall which -- dropped into the water and scooped up a lot of water, pulling the bow down.

The hatch got buried in water, and the boat sank.
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Old 25-04-2013, 16:50   #110
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pirate Re: Storm Sailing Advice

[QUOTE=Rakuflames;1220271]
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post


SIGH ... YES, Boatman. I really do think ALL the people here can look at their charts and figure out 1) if they're in the Gulf Stream and 2) where they are in the Gulf Stream. You seem determined to try to bury me in extraneous facts.

As I said in my ORIGINAL post on the topic, if you're in the Gulf Stream where it runs north, and the storm is from the north, getting out of there will help things considerably, but you want to go to the East, and not toward the shore. There's absolutely nothing inaccurate about that, and a smart person can extrapolate the circumstances to other situations.

Doesn't much matter what another city thinks. Of course all cities in the US have seen spectacular lightning. Honestly, I would appreciate it if you didn't comb through my posts looking for things to nit-pick.

We could debate this, but we would both look like idiots, so I'm not going to play. Anything is debatable, including this -- Lightning capital of the nation

My point THERE wasn't about lightning, but about the propensity for pretty severe storms to develop very rapidly -- off both coasts of Florida. The nit-picking obscures the real conversation.
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Old 25-04-2013, 17:05   #111
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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One could say I am more influenced by Bernard Moitessier and the sailors of yesteryear....
"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present. In this limitless nation, this nation of wind, light, and peace, there is no other ruler besides the sea.
My real log is written in the sea and sky; the sails talking with the rain and the stars amid the sounds of the sea, the silences full of secret things between my boat and me, like the times I spent as a child listening to the forest talk. The geography of the sailor is not always the one of the cartographer, for whom a cape is a cape with its longitude and latitude. For the sailor, a great cape is both very simple and extremely complex, with rocks, currents, furling seas, beautiful oceans, good winds and gusts, moments of happiness and of fright, fatigue, dreams, aching hands, an empty stomach, marvellous minutes and sometimes suffering. A great cape, for us, cannot be translated only into a latitude and a longitude. A great cape has a soul, with shadows and colours, very soft, very violent. A soul as smooth as that of a child, as hard as that of a criminal."
Thanks for that Boatie…Moitessier has always been my most influential and spiritual teacher.

Memorized his first 3 books and as a budding sailor, I wandered the coastline with my slingshot in one hand… a bag of curry in my backpack… searching for seagulls and independence. (Mostly ate crow…)

He epitomized the romance, daring and audacity of a single hander, but ironically, I think his greatest contribution to Heavy Weather tactics was in his book “The Logical Route”, when his wife was on board.

There is probably a reason for that.
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Old 25-04-2013, 17:08   #112
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

A few miscellaneous comments--I must admit to not having read every post in the thread, so please excuse if I repeat.

1. I do believe Florida is the lightning capital of the US, though I have been in some severe conditions in almost every state on the eastern seaboard. Thunderstorms can create survival conditions, though they are short-lived. I was crossing Albemarle Sound once when a thunderstorm hit with undetermined force, but it was enough to completely disable the large (maybe 70-foot) motorboat we were near. They literally just blew away down wind and disappeared as our smaller, flush-decked sailboat was just able to maintain steerage way with all sails down and the engine screaming. But, I think the OP is talking about offshore storms, with prolonged periods of high winds, creating large and dangerous seas.

2. Evans makes an excellent point about seasickness being an important disabling factor that weakens crews and makes decision making difficult. I would add other mundane things are extremely important in determining the outcome of storms: staying reasonably warm and dry, getting rest, having berths that will hold you safely in place so you can get rest, having the boat set up so that you aren't hunting for a flashlight at 2 am when you need one, keeping track of your navigation, monitoring things like engine temperature and battery state, being able to instantly switch to back up critical systems when things fail (navigation systems, bilge pumps, cooking), being able to go to the bathroom (seriously), being able to wedge yourself in somewhere you can be reasonably comfortable while keeping an eye on things, etc., etc.
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Old 25-04-2013, 17:16   #113
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No speed equals no steering. Wouldn't it make sense to turn the engine on??? ...
No engines in those days.
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Old 25-04-2013, 17:25   #114
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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No engines in those days.

OK, I understand, but assuming one has an engine -- I'm really asking here -- when the winds have died down, wouldn't one way to give everyone a break be to stop sailing for a while and turn on the engine?
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Old 25-04-2013, 17:29   #115
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

[QUOTE=boatman61;1220290]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post

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That's funny!!

Great article and mostly great on topic conversation. The term storm is tossed around quite a bit but my guess is we seldom see true storm conditions, especially sustained. I was only in a strong gale and hope that's the worst I'll ever experience. It lasted for 72 hours though and that was enough for cracks to start showing in the boat and crew (especially me). For the first time in my life I became sea sick. What still sticks with me more than anything was the sound - holy crap was it loud.

Contributions from Evans and many other sailors mean so much more to me than all of the 30+ year old books written on this subject. As my kids always say to me, "Ya Dad, that's how you did it back in the day".
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Old 25-04-2013, 18:16   #116
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Well, that wasn't my issue with your post. I really am the one who talked about the n/ne part of the Gulf Stream, and it did relate to storms near the shore -- hence the suggeestion to go EAST out of the Gulf Stream if one can. That really did turn into snarky comments about someone never saying the Gulf Stream turned.

The first time you posted about storm tactics, all you said was that you would go below and ride it out. You didn't mention what kind of storm (coastal storm, the wind can change direction at any time -- it doesn't have the more predictable wind directions of a hurricane), heaving to first, or anything else -- just going below.

Sorry, but it sounded really scary to me. I never said someone has to be on deck all the time under all circumstances. Sometimes we remember what we read inbetween the lines instead of what really was said. It seems to be an online phenomenom to me. In real life you would have seen the look on my face and would have explained what you had done first, etc.
Rakuflames, Please slow down and read the posts without quickly acting in defense. Here, you seem to be confusing Andrew Troup's post with Boatman's. Andrew Troup did make references to keeping crew below in posts 95 and 101, but not without clear expalnation. Responding too quickly without keeping track of people diminishes our ability to communicate well. If you carefully read through the history of this thread you'll find that most all agree with you and your style of cruising, like mine, is not the topic of Andrew Troup's posts
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Old 25-04-2013, 18:27   #117
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
Pelagic

I'm puzzled by your assertions about current eddies in mid ocean being some sort of tidal phenomenon.

I'm assuming you mean tides as caused by gravitational influences on sealevel from celestial bodies?

Can you explain the linkages between tides and mid-ocean current eddies, as you see them?
It is more my innate observation of changing sea states and tide lines at sea, rather than my assertion Andrew.

Ocean Currents are caused by many contributing factors, Wind, Thermal, Sea Floor Topographical, Sea Density and, Tide, all of which gets a spin due to the Coriolis affect.

NOAA's National Ocean Service: Diagram of tidal bulges

So it becomes quite hard to measure independent forces as this abstract discusses
http://champs.cecs.ucf.edu/Library/J...ic%20tides.pdf

Recent Satellite studies support this circular current pattern of Tidal bulges at Sea, which I think many ocean fishermen felt rather than understood.
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Old 25-04-2013, 18:28   #118
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

[QUOTE=Rakuflames;1220271]
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post


SIGH ... YES, Boatman. I really do think ALL the people here can look at their charts and figure out 1) if they're in the Gulf Stream and 2) where they are in the Gulf Stream. You seem determined to try to bury me in extraneous facts.

As I said in my ORIGINAL post on the topic, if you're in the Gulf Stream where it runs north, and the storm is from the north, getting out of there will help things considerably, but you want to go to the East, and not toward the shore. There's absolutely nothing inaccurate about that, and a smart person can extrapolate the circumstances to other situations.

Doesn't much matter what another city thinks. Of course all cities in the US have seen spectacular lightning. Honestly, I would appreciate it if you didn't comb through my posts looking for things to nit-pick.

We could debate this, but we would both look like idiots, so I'm not going to play. Anything is debatable, including this -- Lightning capital of the nation

My point THERE wasn't about lightning, but about the propensity for pretty severe storms to develop very rapidly -- off both coasts of Florida. The nit-picking obscures the real conversation.
Bit of pot calling the kettle black I would say.
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Old 25-04-2013, 18:31   #119
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

Thanks Evans and other experienced contributers.

Have found this thread very informative and valuable. Great.
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Old 25-04-2013, 18:47   #120
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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Rakuflames, Please slow down and read the posts without quickly acting in defense. Here, you seem to be confusing Andrew Troup's post with Boatman's. Andrew Troup did make references to keeping crew below in posts 95 and 101, but not without clear expalnation. Responding too quickly without keeping track of people diminishes our ability to communicate well. If you carefully read through the history of this thread you'll find that most all agree with you and your style of cruising, like mine, is not the topic of Andrew Troup's posts
CaptForce, please don't tell me how to post. I'm not "quickly acting in defense," either. Both of those statements are interpretations of yours that don't actually apply.

Clearly YOU do not remember what I was referring to. There WERE posts that gave very good reasons for keeping people below; that wasn't what I was commenting on. I was not commenting on anything Troup said. His posts have been enlightening and informative and I'm glad he's been posting on this topic.

"Style of cruising" doesn't count for much if the storm is severe enough. Although I'm not crossing the Pacific, I could still be caught in a truly severe storm. it happened to someone in the marina I used to live in. He was almost washed overboard. His tether -- wrapped around the mast -- stopped him when his legs were halfway through the "lifelines."

These things can happen to coastal cruisers. In addition, although MY boat is a coastal cruiser, I would love to go offshore on someone else's boat. If we should get caught in a bad storm, I will want to understand what's going on, be able to follow directions ... not panic.

Do you REALLY want this to be the topic of the thread now? I doubt anyone else does, since we're giving out off-topic advice.
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