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Old 25-04-2013, 13:23   #91
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
I'm a coastal cruiser too, but coastal cruisers sail all the time to Key West and/or the Tortugas where I am. In addition, I have personally seen vicious storms pop up, unpredicted. Florida is famous for them; Tampa is the lightning capitol of the country partly because of that, but they happen offshore as well (don't have to be far offshore).

I have said this before and will say it again (and other more experienced people have agreed with me). It can happen.
It's sometimes easy to imagine people don't agree with you when, actually they do agree. As I had said, my typical experience is storms arriving with sqaull lines and gusts 50 to 70 mph. I agree that storms pop-up unpredicted often in Florida. Sure there's lightning! As I identified myself as a coastal cruiser, I wasn't saying that I'm not exposed to storms. I frequent the Keys and count the Dry Tortugas among them. We also frequent the Exumas, Eleuthra and the Coastal Islands of Maine. Regardless of their intensity, these are little storms in terms of duration. When I say I am able to avoid the big storms, I'm speaking of those that are typically named, as well as the noreasters that blow for three or five days. I'm sure we also agree that anyone who listens to the weather reports and and is within two or three days of a sheltered anchorage can seek a safe harbor if they want too and this is my choice. This makes me and virtually everone else that is not making long ocean passages a coastal cruiser. We've anchored out in three major hurricanes, many tropical storms and major lows over our 42 years of active cruising. We choose not to be underway in these storms.
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Old 25-04-2013, 14:09   #92
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

I'm not sure how this thread drifted to thunderstorms, whether coastal or midocean.
I wonder if there's a category error being perpetrated.

It started as a useful thread about "being in the middle of an ocean when a storm happens".

A sailor does not draw parallels between a thunderstorm and a storm at sea.

There are virtually no similarities, other than the peak strength of the wind.

Storm force winds do not equate to a storm, except in land-speak.

Then, as a narrow subset of storms at sea, there are survival storms at sea, which only a tiny handful of sailors ever encounter. (And I for one hope never to join their number)

It strikes me that someone who, on the strength of having survived thunderstorms and read widely, considers themselves to have acquired useful knowledge about survival storms at sea, bears a certain similarity the sort of self-styled athlete depicted below
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Old 25-04-2013, 14:26   #93
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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I'm not sure how this thread drifted to thunderstorms, whether coastal or midocean.
I wonder if there's a category error being perpetrated.

It started as a useful thread about "being in the middle of an ocean when a storm happens".

A sailor does not draw parallels between a thunderstorm and a storm at sea. .......................
Thanks, I was hoping to to express this idea when I said, as a coastal crusier, I'm not subject to the big storms.
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Old 25-04-2013, 14:32   #94
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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What do you do when both kids are sick at the same time, oh and the dog too been there, what a mess, oh and it doesn't go down the plug hole.

Pete

Plug hole?
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Old 25-04-2013, 14:35   #95
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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The greatest benefit of heavy weather experience is that you are less stressed about your boat and crew’s performance.

Being less stressed helps to prevent sea sickness, thus allowing you to actually rest when off watch…. resulting in less fatigue.
....
I think that's a very important observation. I wonder if it's like something I observed during my brief dalliance with rock climbing.

I would be shattered after leading a short pitch, because I didn't have the experience to know how little or how much muscular effort I needed to exert in order not to fall off. Consequently I was continually at 100% effort ... even on holds where 40% would have served.

As for going below in bad conditions, I can think of a couple of times hove to under storm trysail in the Southern Ocean with over dozen strong crew on a maxi, with a skipper whose seamanship, judgement and leadership were literally legendary.

There was no way he would have risked leaving anyone abovedecks for any length of time.

A tour of inspection was carried out methodically (every six hours, IIRC, but no doubt dictated by circumstances)
This was done by a pair of eagle-eyed crew, of whom he was sometimes but not necessarily one. In those days survival suits were hard to come by, I think we only had a couple on board, so it helped to be the right size.

Any extraneous noises were naturally investigated immediately.
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Old 25-04-2013, 14:38   #96
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

Pelagic

I'm puzzled by your assertions about current eddies in mid ocean being some sort of tidal phenomenon.

I'm assuming you mean tides as caused by gravitational influences on sealevel from celestial bodies?

Can you explain the linkages between tides and mid-ocean current eddies, as you see them?
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Old 25-04-2013, 14:47   #97
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

Your point is well taken, Andrew. But Evans starts out his article:

"As weather conditions get progressively more severe, there is a line


that is eventually crossed. On one side of that line is “Heavy Weather Sailing”, where you are still racing or passage making, still trying to
make course and keep up speed. On the other side of that line is “Survival Sailing” when your priority and focus has shifted to preserving the vessel and crew."

I was in a thunderstorm in the Bahamas once that would have, for about an hour, met this definition. I think one of the reasons Evans' article is so useful is that it sort of gets away from that great-cyclonic-storm-midocean view of things and addresses those situations where the poop really hits the fan in general. Boatman's stories all take place on the continental shelf. That seems to be part of what made the situation so tough. The Fastnet race disaster happened relatively close to shore in relatively shallow water affected by tidal currents.


I saw a sailboat towed in once by the U.S. Coast Guard after being caught about ten miles off North Carolina in a Nor'easter. That situation had turned into a survival storm for them. When the ambulance hauled the injured crew members away, and the Coast Guard tied up the heavily damaged boat, they had, I suppose, successfully survived.


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Old 25-04-2013, 14:52   #98
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[QUOTE="belizesailor;1217964"]Lin & Larry Pardeys books and articles. Particularly for those who think they may prefer long distance voyaging to coastal cruising.
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Old 25-04-2013, 14:53   #99
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As said for any serious crossing start small. My wife and I are in the same place, day sailors/ coastal cruisers... So every time the wind starts to blow 20-25 + knots we go out to sea. I would guess if I can handle 40knots Hove To in a 27' boat then 50-60 in a 35+ boat should be easy. Larry Pardeys books are good sound advice. I believe they have 240000 NM with out a motor in a 29' wood boat. You only live once go for it.
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Old 25-04-2013, 14:58   #100
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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As said for any serious crossing start small. My wife and I are in the same place, day sailors/ coastal cruisers... So every time the wind starts to blow 20-25 + knots we go out to sea. I would guess if I can handle 40knots Hove To in a 27' boat then 50-60 in a 35+ boat should be easy. Larry Pardeys books are good sound advice. I believe they have 240000 NM with out a motor in a 29' wood boat. You only live once go for it.

Doesn't work that way, Autumn. Go out in 25 knots of wind (I'm assuming you reef at the dock and make sure you have the right headsail up there), but you can't just imagine a linear projection like that. You get caught in 60knot wind in a 35' boat you're going to be very scared. You'll probably survive, but it's going to be a tough situation, and you're going to have to think very carefully.

Hove to may not be a good position depending on where you are. The boat will still be moving, and it had better not be toward shore.
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Old 25-04-2013, 15:15   #101
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

Tia Bu

You make good sense, it seems to me.

I think, for instance, that there's a distinction between survival storms (which can be troublesome to vessels at any scale) and survival situations (which are clearly radically different -- and more frequently encountered -- for small or lightly built vessels)

My concern about thread drift was that fights always break out because input which was predicated on one set of circumstances is seen as inappropriate by another constituency.

The challenges of coastal storms, or storm-force wind events, are greater in most ways than the challenges of the same winds encountered mid-ocean.
But more importantly, they're different.

To take one example, it's not viable to leave the deck unattended for significant periods when sailing close inshore, in bad conditions or good.

Whereas in deep waters, it's a marathon rather than a sprint, and (for one thing) conserving forces can be important when it may be necessary to tough it out for many days.

So when someone mentions leaving the deck unattended in this thread, it gets taken out of context and people start disagreeing who are not actually talking about the same endeavour.

I guess that's inevitable, but I don't think it's helpful.
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Old 25-04-2013, 15:19   #102
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Well it depends on the day, sustained winds of 25 knots with gust of 30 yes we go to the first reef and stay sail any thing above 35knots is the thrid reef and storm sail. Above 40knots which I have only seen twice in a afternoon squall, we sail
storm sail only. Hoving To will in my opinion save your life. Now as a coastal cruiser NO! Hoving To is in my opinion dumb! To close to land but so is running. We always ride it out, for I know as a coastal cruiser must rain storms pass very quickly. Thunder storm is nothing to storm weather out in the Pacific 200NM off shore.
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Old 25-04-2013, 15:25   #103
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pirate Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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As said for any serious crossing start small. My wife and I are in the same place, day sailors/ coastal cruisers... So every time the wind starts to blow 20-25 + knots we go out to sea. I would guess if I can handle 40knots Hove To in a 27' boat then 50-60 in a 35+ boat should be easy. Larry Pardeys books are good sound advice. I believe they have 240000 NM with out a motor in a 29' wood boat. You only live once go for it.
One could say I am more influenced by Bernard Moitessier and the sailors of yesteryear....
"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present. In this limitless nation, this nation of wind, light, and peace, there is no other ruler besides the sea.
My real log is written in the sea and sky; the sails talking with the rain and the stars amid the sounds of the sea, the silences full of secret things between my boat and me, like the times I spent as a child listening to the forest talk. The geography of the sailor is not always the one of the cartographer, for whom a cape is a cape with its longitude and latitude. For the sailor, a great cape is both very simple and extremely complex, with rocks, currents, furling seas, beautiful oceans, good winds and gusts, moments of happiness and of fright, fatigue, dreams, aching hands, an empty stomach, marvellous minutes and sometimes suffering. A great cape, for us, cannot be translated only into a latitude and a longitude. A great cape has a soul, with shadows and colours, very soft, very violent. A soul as smooth as that of a child, as hard as that of a criminal."
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Old 25-04-2013, 15:44   #104
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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Tia Bu

You make good sense, it seems to me.

I think, for instance, that there's a distinction between survival storms (which can be troublesome to vessels at any scale) and survival situations (which are clearly radically different -- and more frequently encountered -- for small or lightly built vessels)

My concern about thread drift was that fights always break out because input which was predicated on one set of circumstances is seen as inappropriate by another constituency.

The challenges of coastal storms, or storm-force wind events, are greater in most ways than the challenges of the same winds encountered mid-ocean.
But more importantly, they're different.

To take one example, it's not viable to leave the deck unattended for significant periods when sailing close inshore, in bad conditions or good.

Whereas in deep waters, it's a marathon rather than a sprint, and (for one thing) conserving forces can be important when it may be necessary to tough it out for many days.

So when someone mentions leaving the deck unattended in this thread, it gets taken out of context and people start disagreeing who are not actually talking about the same endeavour.

I guess that's inevitable, but I don't think it's helpful.
Well, that wasn't my issue with your post. I really am the one who talked about the n/ne part of the Gulf Stream, and it did relate to storms near the shore -- hence the suggeestion to go EAST out of the Gulf Stream if one can. That really did turn into snarky comments about someone never saying the Gulf Stream turned.

The first time you posted about storm tactics, all you said was that you would go below and ride it out. You didn't mention what kind of storm (coastal storm, the wind can change direction at any time -- it doesn't have the more predictable wind directions of a hurricane), heaving to first, or anything else -- just going below.

Sorry, but it sounded really scary to me. I never said someone has to be on deck all the time under all circumstances. Sometimes we remember what we read inbetween the lines instead of what really was said. It seems to be an online phenomenom to me. In real life you would have seen the look on my face and would have explained what you had done first, etc.
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Old 25-04-2013, 16:13   #105
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pirate Re: Storm Sailing Advice

[QUOTE=Rakuflames;1220229]Well, that wasn't my issue with your post. I really am the one who talked about the n/ne part of the Gulf Stream, and it did relate to storms near the shore -- hence the suggeestion to go EAST out of the Gulf Stream if one can. QUOTE]

N-NE part of the Gulf Stream US of A... that's kinda up Hatteras way and tough to get out off going East... a lot easier down Florida way...
I think Beaufort NC might have some objections to any claims as to Tampa being the 'Lightening Capital'... seen some awesome displays up that way..
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