Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 8 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
Old 25-04-2013, 02:42   #61
Pusher of String
 
foolishsailor's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: On the hard; Trinidad
Boat: Trisbal 42, Aluminum Cutter Rigged Sloop
Posts: 2,314
Images: 19
Re: Storm Sailing Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I also find the most dangerous times is after the event , often the seas are still huge, the wind can be flukey and the crew get inattentive.
@Evans - I think Dave makes an excellent point and one that is rarely addresed in "Storm Literature". I would love to see your article touch on this aspect of the aftermath.

Many deaths and injuries in mountaineering are also "after the peak" - and for similar reasons..

1. Fatigue
2. Carelessness (one feels they are past the worst and can relax a bit)
3. Conditions have changed and the climbers/crew need to change with them but fail to

In the aftermath of a storm where the seas have gotten fairly large the loss of the wind can leave the sea in quite a dangerous state - and one has to adapt to this new state - while battling with the exhaustion leftover from the previous hours/days battling the storm conditions...
__________________

__________________
"So, rather than appear foolish afterward, I renounce seeming clever now."
William of Baskerville

"You will do foolish things, but do them with enthusiasm."
Sidonie Gabrielle Colette
foolishsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-04-2013, 03:56   #62
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,441
Re: Storm Sailing Advice

I agree that it's often the declining phase of a serious blow which can be the most trouble.

One reason is the understandable reluctance (or inability, in the case of damage) to get sail back on quick enough to cope with the nasty combination of disproportionately large waves and insufficient wind for good control, or even -- in extreme cases -- steerage way.

That latter addition might sound absurd, but on my first trip into the subantarctic, we had a bit of a blow on the way back north and had to run off (ending up missing NZ altogether, and arriving in a patch of ocean we didn't have any decent charts for)

I was woken at 0200 by the panicked watch to say the steering had failed.

All that had really happened was that the wind had dropped below 50 knots and they were so shagged out and desensitised they didn't notice. In their defence, neither did I - at least, not till I went on deck. Once the wind goes above a certain level I think it's normal to go into sensory overload, and I think many of us shut down some of our faculties in order to be able to continue to function.

But I took their observation at face value and dived into the steering flat.

It was a big heavy boat with hydraulic steering, which generally I detest. Part of the problem with this installation was it was overgeared and under-ruddered, with a full length keel, and there was never any helm feel whatsoever below about nine knots of boatspeed, despite being valved in such a way that there was supposed to be driveback. This defect contributed to our misdiagnosis.

I didn't join the dots until I'd eliminated all possible failure points - the lesson I learned is to ask some more probing questions when presented with a damage report, along the lines of teasing out the evidence, and digging up and turning over any assumptions to make sure they're kosher.

It's a bit like the regressive process an IT expert has to go through when presented with a problem: the symptoms are likely to be more useful than any description of what the user considers the problem is likely to be. They generally have to walk the user back along the erroneous diagnostic path they'd taken, to where it leaves the well marked route of established fact.

In the case in point, we simply had to shake out a reef or two and things were OK again.
__________________

__________________
Andrew Troup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-04-2013, 04:34   #63
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,895
Re: Storm Sailing Advice

[QUOTE=Rakuflames;1219467]....Personally I think your storm plan is not the best, unless you're leaving someone above,......I suspect that most people here would not just go below and hope for the best in a really raging storm. ...../QUOTE]

Disagree with that advice, or any other global advice that does not recognize the exceptions

Crew safety is the number one priority… and sometimes it is just far too dangerous to remain on deck in a major storm. (Hurricane force)

Perfect example, early 80”s we were in a major December storm about 90 miles off the Columbia River, in a very well found offshore racing yacht, 54ft S&S. Sparkman & Stephens: Design 2213 - Charisma II

Heard Maydays all around… even large ships were foundering.

Skipper had 13 onboard for this winter delivery and as night watch captain, 4 of us were on deck making just enough steerageway to take one breaking sea at a time.
Then 2 seas hit simultaneously from different angles and we foundered with tons of water on board. My ribs were broken on steering pedestal and 2 others were also banged up.

Skipper felt the boat was safer, with crew on deck…. but luckily changed his mind after that bashing and we hove to with all safely down below….. Next morning sea states were like a storm in the Roaring 40’s and as wave patterns moderated we finally got underway.

Command is all about managing your most precious assets...the crew!
__________________
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-04-2013, 04:49   #64
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,895
Re: Storm Sailing Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Yes I agree, prevailing offshore currents like the GS, counter -equatorial or the Kuroshio are well known and not circular.
ROTFLMAO.... If you wrote this... which you did not.. its was Pelagic... and I was teasing him...
Boatie… time to clean those glasses…
.. neither of us said GS etc… was circular…

Offshore TIDAL currents are circular

Other than that… I agree with you
__________________
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-04-2013, 06:14   #65
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 7,963
An extreme example of after-storm being a problem. Ive read accounts of traditional sailing ships being dismasted due violent rolling in large seas with no wind after a storm.
__________________
belizesailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-04-2013, 06:15   #66
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Boat: Custom Van De Stadt 47 Samoa
Posts: 3,755
Re: Storm Sailing Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by foolishsailor View Post
@Evans - I think Dave makes an excellent point and one that is rarely addresed in "Storm Literature". I would love to see your article touch on this aspect of the aftermath.
...

mmmm . . . . it already does. See the last two sentences in common mistake #3.

I completely agree with this point, and perhaps it deserves more space, but I have packed a lot of thoughts into this article and am already over my word count limit. Beth is going to line edit it when she gets a spare minute, and hopefully cut some useless words and find me a bit more space. If so, I can figure how best to spend those extra words. We have fateigue, and we have 'tail end of a storm' . . . . any other suggestions for important areas that deserve attention, or more attention?

Personally I think the biggest missing component in the article are thoughts on what direction to steer to avoid the worst of a forecast, developing, and right on top of you, storm. However, if one wants to say anything really useful, that's a really complex topic, probably three articles this length worth all by itself.

There are some complexities of the para-anchor tactics that I have not covered . . . like the difference between the Pardey approach and basically 'everyone else's' and John Harries one time use of a single element drogue off the bow (while truly hove-to with sails up). But, since I am being pretty lukewarm on the para-anchors except in the lee shore situation, I did not think to burn words on the more details.

And there are some very interesting micro details of drogue deployment . . . like exactly how best to rig a bridle (for easy deployment and recovery), and expected loads (and thus required attachment point strengths) . But I have covered those in another article - but just a thought as I am writing this . . . perhaps I should reference/link to it.
__________________
estarzinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-04-2013, 06:33   #67
Registered User
 
avb3's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Florida/Alberta
Boat: Lippincott 30
Posts: 9,913
Images: 1
Re: Storm Sailing Advice

I find this thread to be one of the most valuable ones we have had here for a while. Especially important is the input from those that have been there and done that for many years and many thousands of sea miles. Much less important are comments from those that have only read books and base their opinion on their interpretation of those books as opposed to those who have been in those storm situations and know by experience which tactics work for them.
__________________
If your attitude resembles the south end of a bull heading north, it's time to turn around.
avb3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-04-2013, 06:38   #68
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,819
Re: Storm Sailing Advice

Boatie, you now need to change your user title to Harry or Clint .
__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-04-2013, 07:14   #69
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,895
Re: Storm Sailing Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
. . . . any other suggestions for important areas that deserve attention, or more attention?
Evans, my only suggestion is that we nominate you as our CF Survival Sailing Moderator.

You choose related topics in New Threads, that stimulate specific discussion and we all hear real world experiences about.

That way, we can better understand the depth of your findings and hopefully help you to develop and sell more articles.

Win Win for all of us

Any Seconds on this nomination??
__________________
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-04-2013, 07:17   #70
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Storm Sailing Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by foolishsailor View Post
@Evans - I think Dave makes an excellent point and one that is rarely addresed in "Storm Literature". I would love to see your article touch on this aspect of the aftermath.

Many deaths and injuries in mountaineering are also "after the peak" - and for similar reasons..

1. Fatigue
2. Carelessness (one feels they are past the worst and can relax a bit)
3. Conditions have changed and the climbers/crew need to change with them but fail to

In the aftermath of a storm where the seas have gotten fairly large the loss of the wind can leave the sea in quite a dangerous state - and one has to adapt to this new state - while battling with the exhaustion leftover from the previous hours/days battling the storm conditions...

I thought, personally, that the Pardeys' discussions about dealing with exhaustion (and preventing it as much as possible, such as preparing food while you can) was really important. Lots of people here have been through lots of storms, but if *I* get caught in a really bad one it will be my first time, and I'll have to do a lot of planning, and make a lot of decisions, I haven't made before. Everyone here with lots of storm experience still had to go through it for the first time, and I bet that was one impressive lesson.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-04-2013, 07:26   #71
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Storm Sailing Advice

[QUOTE=Pelagic;1219779]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
....Personally I think your storm plan is not the best, unless you're leaving someone above,......I suspect that most people here would not just go below and hope for the best in a really raging storm. ...../QUOTE]

Disagree with that advice, or any other global advice that does not recognize the exceptions

Crew safety is the number one priority… and sometimes it is just far too dangerous to remain on deck in a major storm. (Hurricane force)

Perfect example, early 80”s we were in a major December storm about 90 miles off the Columbia River, in a very well found offshore racing yacht, 54ft S&S. Sparkman & Stephens: Design 2213 - Charisma II

Heard Maydays all around… even large ships were foundering.

Skipper had 13 onboard for this winter delivery and as night watch captain, 4 of us were on deck making just enough steerageway to take one breaking sea at a time.
Then 2 seas hit simultaneously from different angles and we foundered with tons of water on board. My ribs were broken on steering pedestal and 2 others were also banged up.

Skipper felt the boat was safer, with crew on deck…. but luckily changed his mind after that bashing and we hove to with all safely down below….. Next morning sea states were like a storm in the Roaring 40’s and as wave patterns moderated we finally got underway.

Command is all about managing your most precious assets...the crew!

Yes of course. Hasn't happened to me but I know someone it did happen to (been in a couple of storms, but nothing that extreme -- yet). No hurricane, either, just a really bad storm off the west coast of Florida on the way to the Tortugas and Key West. Out of five people, only one person was uninjured at the end. BUT (and I think importantly) liquor was part of their storm plan...

My objection was, actually, the incomplete information. No indication of what kind of storm he was talking about, just 'go below and ride it out.' I thought we were talking about non-hurricanes, which for me at least, not sailing across that huge Pacific, would be avoidable at sea. Might still get slammed, but I would have time to get to a port and get the crew safely off the boat. I thought "Oh heck just go below and have hot chocolate" was kind of incomplete information.

In your scenario you are not just sending people below and hoping for the best. You actually have a plan for the boat to take care of itself -- heaving to. Sounds easy, but my boat is tricky to balance for heaving to if all I want to do is grab a sandwich. In a perfect world I will be caught i a slightly more major storm each time and know how to do that as well as possible for a really big blow.

This discussion could save injuries and lives. I'm going to say again that I'm grateful for it.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-04-2013, 07:32   #72
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Storm Sailing Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
An extreme example of after-storm being a problem. Ive read accounts of traditional sailing ships being dismasted due violent rolling in large seas with no wind after a storm.
No speed equals no steering. Wouldn't it make sense to turn the engine on??? (Of course, increasing sail area when the wind has died down, but I can see an exhausted crew as looking at the boom and continue to think "thank goodness we had that third reef" or whatever, and if increasing the sail meant changing the headsail and they were really exhausted, I think it would be easy to rationalize that it wasn't necessary...)

I do have a really good reefing system on my boat. Easy to put in, easy to shake out. Also an important time to have sails that haven't been over-used and stretched out.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-04-2013, 07:39   #73
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Storm Sailing Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
mmmm . . . . it already does. See the last two sentences in common mistake #3.

I completely agree with this point, and perhaps it deserves more space, but I have packed a lot of thoughts into this article and am already over my word count limit. Beth is going to line edit it when she gets a spare minute, and hopefully cut some useless words and find me a bit more space. If so, I can figure how best to spend those extra words. We have fateigue, and we have 'tail end of a storm' . . . . any other suggestions for important areas that deserve attention, or more attention?

Personally I think the biggest missing component in the article are thoughts on what direction to steer to avoid the worst of a forecast, developing, and right on top of you, storm. However, if one wants to say anything really useful, that's a really complex topic, probably three articles this length worth all by itself.

There are some complexities of the para-anchor tactics that I have not covered . . . like the difference between the Pardey approach and basically 'everyone else's' and John Harries one time use of a single element drogue off the bow (while truly hove-to with sails up). But, since I am being pretty lukewarm on the para-anchors except in the lee shore situation, I did not think to burn words on the more details.

And there are some very interesting micro details of drogue deployment . . . like exactly how best to rig a bridle (for easy deployment and recovery), and expected loads (and thus required attachment point strengths) . But I have covered those in another article - but just a thought as I am writing this . . . perhaps I should reference/link to it.
So far I think you have done a masterful job of writing concisely without leaving out important things, but the end of the storm -- the winds calm down before the waves do -- really is important. Are you writing this for publication? If so, maybe you could sell them on two articles and not have to leave that out.

I also think a reminder that someone should go down and make some sandwiches (and thermoses of soup and coffee if you have the equipment) -- and of course, maybe triple-seal those sandwiches in several plastic bags -- would be a good thing. I would also put some COOKIES AND FRUIT in plastic. The brain runs on two things -- oxygen and sugar, and eating in a timely way can go a long way to fighting off brain as well as body fatigue.

When I sail by myself I have this stuff in a cooler in the cockpit, but I wouldn't want a cooler flying around the cockpit in a big storm. It could break an ankle. In rough water I have food easy to grab just inside the companionway. Don't have to go down any steps in a rolling sea to get to it. Doubt it saved my life, but it saved my attitude.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-04-2013, 07:45   #74
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,895
Re: Storm Sailing Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
.... Everyone here with lots of storm experience still had to go through it for the first time, and I bet that was one impressive lesson.
Too True!!

Having suffered thru them a few times in my early days before improvements in weather forecasting and communications, the lessons never seemed to stop.

Each storm passage seemed to have its own specific challenges and surprises.

Tactical decisions were often spoiled be the formation of fast moving Families of Lows

Even minor equipment damages became critical and worrisome in a storm

So as you say, the best you can plan for is the storm preparation of Boat and Crew

Patience and Humility to try and not ‘Best the Storm' is probably the greatest lesson I try to teach new crew, who often see the Storm as some kind of Test.
__________________
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-04-2013, 07:47   #75
Registered User
 
mbianka's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,125
Images: 1
Re: Storm Sailing Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
I find this thread to be one of the most valuable ones we have had here for a while. Especially important is the input from those that have been there and done that for many years and many thousands of sea miles. Much less important are comments from those that have only read books and base their opinion on their interpretation of those books as opposed to those who have been in those storm situations and know by experience which tactics work for them.
I agree this is a very interesting discussion. Because I single hand most of the time I think I would lean to Boatmans idea just to avoid the fatigue issue alone. Though as Evan points out each boat behaves differently so having various arrows in the quiver is always a good idea. Though even with crew one has to think about what if several of them become disabled for whatever reason, sickness, broken bones etc... That could end up leaving one person in basically single handed situation even if you started out with others on board.
__________________

__________________
Capt. Mike
mbianka is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
sailing

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 13:08.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.