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Old 09-05-2013, 15:31   #346
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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Originally Posted by Weyalan View Post
I hesitate to say this, but I sometimes think that they feel that the very possession of the gear has some sort of talismanic value.
Welcome to the modern world - to cure problems just add money, saves a lot of thinking......

In regard to the Atheists in foxholes thing, that's simply a cultural issue - if you brainwash someone from the age of zero into beleiving that the Easter Bunny is real and can save them - then a fair to middling chance that in extremis folks won't be able to shake off that conditioning. No great mystery (or higher power) involved - simply a very human reaction. and IMO a pragmatic one, and none the worse for that. Substitute Easter Bunny for deity of choice (well, choice of your parents usually). Never been in a foxhole myself (I hear the pay is sh#t. and folks shoot at ya ), but had a few times when I thought my time was up - never even occurred to me to go all babble, much the same as western folks in foxholes mostly don't suddenly turn to Hinduism.

But back on topic .....I have only read the second half of this thread, but for me a storm is pretty much anything I think is a storm! and that largely around stuff which is big enough and going on long enough to be past simply ploughing on as a tactic and actually requires some thought into a Plan B or C, whether or not these also materialise. How big the sea is and strong the wind to be a storm (for me) is largely dictated by size of boat and where I am. For how stoing the wind is I tend to go by MPH as a rough guide rather than the beaufort scale, on sea conditions I probably have my own personal scale - "that's nice", "gettin' breezy", "a bit lumpy", "a hooley" and "yikes".

For a hooley and yikes I would be expecting the unexpected (and inconveniant) in waves. Admittedly my experiance of storm force yikes is mercifully small , and technically probably non-existent . Plan A is to keep it that way .

FWIW, (next to nadda) my advice to those starting out on own learning curve is practice doing the dull stuff like reefing and heaving to (and even cooking) before you get to actually needing to. or wishing you could. When cold, wet and tired and it's blowin' a hooley is not the best time to start the hands on end of the learning curve, even with a few books of theory behind ya.
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Old 12-05-2013, 13:31   #347
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

Excuse a complete newby jumping in here, but I came to this site through reading about the Jordon Drogue. I've never forgotten the comments of Capt. John Voss, who sailed the converted dugout canoe Tillikum almost around the world, on sea anchors and oil bags.

It's fascinating reading: The Venturesome Voyages Of Captain Voss
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Old 14-05-2013, 03:42   #348
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

Welcome aboard Tillikum and thanks for reminding us of Captain Voss; surely an intrepid cruiser!
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Old 14-05-2013, 07:51   #349
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

Thanks, I should have mentioned that if you go to the open library link I posted, the term "sea anchor" (Voss' term for a drogue) is highlighted and you can just click on the tabs at the bottom of the page to be taken to each of the references to "sea anchors" in the text. Of course there's a lot more there as well.

I'm surprised by the references in this thread to using a drogue or sea anchor to hold the stern to the waves; what is the thinking behind this as opposed to holding bow-on to the waves?
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Old 14-05-2013, 07:53   #350
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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I'm surprised by the references in this thread to using a drogue or sea anchor to hold the stern to the waves; what is the thinking behind this as opposed to holding bow-on to the waves?
drogues slow the boat to prevent broaching running downwind, its not used as a 'sea anchor'

dave
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Old 14-05-2013, 08:01   #351
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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Originally Posted by Tillikum View Post
Thanks, I should have mentioned that if you go to the open library link I posted, the term "sea anchor" (Voss' term for a drogue) is highlighted and you can just click on the tabs at the bottom of the page to be taken to each of the references to "sea anchors" in the text. Of course there's a lot more there as well.

I'm surprised by the references in this thread to using a drogue or sea anchor to hold the stern to the waves; what is the thinking behind this as opposed to holding bow-on to the waves?

There are volumes written in CF on this topic, try the search engine. In addition, if you google "Jordan Drogue" you will find a fairly technical discussion of the thinking behind this configuration. Sufficient to say this strategy is used in extrema when the winds are high enough to cause breaking seas that threaten to pitchpole or roll your yacht.
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Old 14-05-2013, 09:01   #352
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

Cheers!

Don't know why but the link to Voss seems to have gone dead just now.

This is the direct link: The Venturesome Voyages of Captain Voss (Open Library)

(Search terms in quotation marks)
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Old 14-05-2013, 09:28   #353
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

Hi Tillikum, welcome to Cruiser's Forun!

The drogue that Voss invented (or at least popularized) was used off the bow, to hold his boat head-to-wind. These day's that is called a sea-anchor, and a drogue is now a fairly small drag device towed from the stern while running downwind. The drogue keeps the stern facing the seas, and helps prevent a broach.

The Voss drogue is much smaller than a modern sea anchor, but of course Voss' "Tillikum" was a *small* boat. In fact, the Voss "drogue" is about the same size as a modern drogue.

It's confusing, but the terminology and usage have changed since Voss went sailing.

Have you seen Tillikum? It's in the maritime museum in Victoria (on Vancouver Island). I've read the book, and seen Tilikum a few times, and both are definitely worth doing. The maritime museum also has Guzzwell's "Trekka" on display -- it's a great place to spend an afternoon. The Maritime Museum of British Columbia | Join the Voyage
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Old 14-05-2013, 10:39   #354
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

Thanks for straightening me out there Paul. I have had the privilege to sit in the cockpit of the Tillikum and look over her interior. Of course almost nothing is left of Voss' interior as the Tillikum was more or less a hulk when salvaged. Many moons ago I did some volunteer work on the Trekka too, when she was on display right next to the Tillikum. She was an evocative boat to board as well! She is now in the water again I hear. "Wooden ships & iron men" Will try to not sidetrack the thread further!
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Old 14-05-2013, 12:19   #355
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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I am just writing an article on this . . . see survival sailing

It's a working draft - content is all there but it has not had its clean up line editing yet.
From your article...
Quote:
Medium/Semi-active: This is similar to the above technique but with the speed reduced (sqt of waterline length is often a good target speed), and usually towing either a warp or a drogue.
Evans,
I've just started reading this long thread, so maybe someone else has already commented on this passage...

Could you further explain what you mean by this? If ones vessel is 36' (11meters) long, does that mean to sail at 6 miles/hr, or 6 knots, or 3.3 meters/sec, or 3.3 knots, or what?

Thanks for the article.
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Old 14-05-2013, 14:00   #356
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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Of course almost nothing is left of Voss' interior as the Tillikum was more or less a hulk when salvaged.
Wait, wait, wait.

You guys are suggesting heavy weather tactics from a guy whose boat "...was more or less a hulk when salvaged."?

Reminds me of George Burns.

"George, what does your doctor think of your drinking and smoking cigars at your age?"

"He's dead."

I think I prefer storm tactics written by folks who are still alive and sailing the boat they wrote about. Like the Pardeys.
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Old 14-05-2013, 14:35   #357
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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Wait, wait, wait.

You guys are suggesting heavy weather tactics from a guy whose boat "...was more or less a hulk when salvaged."?

Reminds me of George Burns.

"George, what does your doctor think of your drinking and smoking cigars at your age?"

"He's dead."

I think I prefer storm tactics written by folks who are still alive and sailing the boat they wrote about. Like the Pardeys.
The Tilikum was fine when Voss sailed her into port in the UK. Sitting abandoned on the Thames mud for seven years did her no good though. The worst damage she got on the trip was being dropped on the hard when a lifting hook broke.

She would have looked like this originally:
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Old 14-05-2013, 14:51   #358
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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Originally Posted by ImaginaryNumber View Post
From your article...


Evans,
I've just started reading this long thread, so maybe someone else has already commented on this passage...

Could you further explain what you mean by this? If ones vessel is 36' (11meters) long, does that mean to sail at 6 miles/hr, or 6 knots, or 3.3 meters/sec, or 3.3 knots, or what?

Thanks for the article.
Sorry, the article is specifically written for an American boating audience - ft and kts. So, a 36' waterline might aim for 6kts (perhaps just a bit more with a 'performance hull').
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Old 16-05-2013, 04:57   #359
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer Six View Post
Wait, wait, wait.

You guys are suggesting heavy weather tactics from a guy whose boat "...was more or less a hulk when salvaged."?

Reminds me of George Burns.

"George, what does your doctor think of your drinking and smoking cigars at your age?"

"He's dead."

I think I prefer storm tactics written by folks who are still alive and sailing the boat they wrote about. Like the Pardeys.
Wait, wait, wait; read the history (and books) of Captain Voss and you might be able to show a deep respect for a true voyager.

Not to say that the Pardeys don't deserve the same level of respect - they do but Captain Voss was a seaman of a different era and was a forerunner of the modern cruiser and predates the Hitchcocks, Chichester, the Smeetons, Moitessier, Knox-Johnston (Sir Robin) etc.

These are sailors defined storm handling in the Southern Ocean when all weather forecasting was carried by local observation of the conditions outside the porthole and the only instruments were the eyeball of the skipper and the barometer. Comms were non existent except by signal flags to an very occasional passing ship or maybe a patchy and temperamental HF or in Moitessier's case, a message in a film canister launched by slingshot onto the deck of a passing ship.

Captain Voss has my respect
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Old 16-05-2013, 05:16   #360
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

while reading accounts of heavy weather handling and great tales of derring do are all very well. You really have to read comprehensively around teh subject to gain an insight into different techniques and approaches, Then you have to try and apply that 'received' knowledge to your circumstances and situations ( thats the hard bit).

Contemporary accounts from the Pardys, Alard coles , Steve Dashew and our own Evans Starzinger etc give a very wide range of techniques and styles. But Evans 30 second summary is the best summary Ive seen yet.
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