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Old 07-05-2013, 05:19   #331
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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"there are few atheists in a fox hole" could be misconstrued as meaning that "the religious are warmongers" ..
I must have missed something in my recent reading of the history of the Crusades!!! ( PS not a thread drift topic)

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Old 07-05-2013, 05:26   #332
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

Just a couple thoughts on trisails . . . .

1. We carry a trysail and have a separate track (which runs down to the deck so we can work on it sitting down rather than standing up) for it, but we learned early on that we would simply not use it if it was stowed down below in a bag. We would only use it if it was hanked on the track, and bagged there, at the start of the passage, and ready to hoist just by putting the halyard on. We just were not going to sit on deck at the mast in a storm and fiddle all the slides onto the mast while the trysail was trying to blow around - instead we would either go with the deepest mainsail reef or drop the mainsail all together and go with just the staysail/storm jib. So, given that, if we did not have a separate track, I can't imagine we would even consider trying to take off the mainsail and feed in the trysail standing up. We do use the trysail if it is on the track and ready to go.

2. There are two typical ways to rig the sheets for a trysail - two sheets to the quarters and not connected at all to the boom, or one sheet to the end of the boom. The first method is the 'traditional' way, and it is good for sailing close hauled or forereaching but it gives terrible shape for broad reaching or running. The second method (sheet to the end of the boom) gives much better shape control for reaching and running, but obviously causes a problem if you have broken the boom in a knock down and also potentially causes some increases danger in a gybe. It would be nice to have a trysail that was cut to allow either/both, but the sail makers typically don't know anything about actual trysail use and so don't think about this.

3. The ORC trysail is a terrific size for perhaps 40-50 kts (depend on the boat stability) but I at least find it a bit big for more than wind than that. It would be interesting to see a 'reefable' trysail, but the sheeting angles would be tricky.

4. The trisails are typically not very efficiently shaped and are typically of stretchy cloth, so not very good options for the 'fast/active' close reaching option described in my survival sailing paper. A higher aspect, better cut, lower stretch deep third reef is better for this tactic.

I have always felt there is a lot of room for a sail maker to rethink and redesign the basic trysail (which must be a sail that has not been rethought or redesigned in almost 100 years). But unfortunately sail makers (and the vast majority of customers) have not actually used don't know much about and don't think at all about trisails.
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Old 07-05-2013, 05:30   #333
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

I see no advantage in trysails , over a strong cruising mainsail with a deep 3rd reef. Thats leaving aside lack of seperate tracks, difficulty in flying it, etc.

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Old 07-05-2013, 05:45   #334
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I see no advantage in trysails , over a strong cruising mainsail with a deep 3rd reef. Thats leaving aside lack of seperate tracks, difficulty in flying it, etc.

Dave
I find four advantages:

First, and the primary reason a trysail is required by the offshore special regulations, is if you break the boom your mainsail is screwed, while you can still fly the trysail (because its cut to sheet to the quarters). Almost no mainsail will sheet properly to the quarters. And booms do break, often at the vang attachment point, in a very hard gybe or if you dip the end in the water on a wave.

Second, it saves the mainsail from a lot of hard wear wand tear. There is often some leach flutter when hove-to or forereaching which can damage a mainsail. I would much rather have that going on the trysail.

Third, we have twice had mainsail slide/cars damaged at sea, and been able to hoist the trysail as sort of a 'spare mainsail' to keep the boat moving and stable while fixing the mainsail.

Fourth, (primarily for a bigger boat) on say 25-30kt daysails I often hoist the trysail rather than the main, because it is more than enough sail area, and is easier to flake and put away at the end of the day.
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Old 07-05-2013, 05:56   #335
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

I accept all that , but I find increasingly on boats , there is no second track. Then in my experience most trysails are too big, certainly ISAF ones are.

Agree re boom etc. however I find that in big blows, the boom is in effect not being used, running down wind or in forereaching is tight in.

I have rigged and flown trysails, but I find unless rigged, in a separate track and literally ready to hoist, it never gets used,hence my comments,

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Old 07-05-2013, 05:56   #336
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Interesting. I have more or less given up on trysails. I'm pretty happy with a good deep third reef in a properly built and strong main. Usually I carry a spare main below somewhere.

But i've also got nothing against having them, and they are probably needed if you have the normal lightly built main with two reefs that many boats seem to have. At least then you have something to put up while you stich up the shredded main.

Modern boom bags and lazy jacks make setting and tacking trysails harder. And modern mast profiles often make it hard to run a separate trysail track that leads fair on both tacks.

I have also always rigged mine to the boom, but they are cut to also be sheeted to the quarters if needed.

On Snowpetrel I fitted a separate halyard for the trysail, it ran from the top of the trysail track. If you use the main halyard it can sometimes start slapping the mast. Most annoying and can chafe the halyard. I guess you could add a few slides or something clever to stop this. Has anyone else had a problem wirh this happening to them?

My folks get good use out of their trysail on their gaff ketch. It has a reef but I am not sure it gets reefed very often.
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Old 07-05-2013, 06:25   #337
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I havent tried it but it should be possible to get a reefed main to set well enough without a boom. Maybe even the full main if you pulled the tack of the first reef part way down to lower the clew? It would make for an interesting experiment...
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Old 07-05-2013, 06:52   #338
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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I havent tried it but it should be possible to get a reefed main to set well enough without a boom. Maybe even the full main if you pulled the tack of the first reef part way down to lower the clew? It would make for an interesting experiment...
I have seen it done . . . but its not something to be messing around with in storm conditions, and more difficult with full lower battens (probably have to pull at least one out), and the 'bunt' of the sail (which is pretty big after you get done shaping the sail) flogs around quite a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I have rigged and flown trysails, but I find unless rigged, in a separate track and literally ready to hoist, it never gets used,hence my comments,

dave
I agree. As part of our passage prep we now hank on and bag on deck the trysail before every passage. I also just leave it there for high latitude costal cruising so I can use it rather than the main sail on windy days. It does not get in the way and just sits there quietly. You do need a separate track which comes down to the deck to do that.
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Old 07-05-2013, 07:09   #339
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

On our previous boat, off the Cozumel coast of Mexico, we had a lee shore, no working engine, a reef in the main, slightly furled jib and we sailed up to a little port to check out the entrance conditions. The surf was crashing right across the entrance, so we decided against going in. We turned north, hauled in the jib and main and set a course for Isla Mujeres.

15 minutes later the gooseneck broke. Dropped the main immediately. With just the jib we could not claw our way off the coast. 15 minutes later the surf was getting closer but we now had the main off the boom and had it sheeted in loose-footed, with the sheet attached to the first reef point. It looked odd but we started to claw our way back out again. No need for the trysail that day...but we sure moved quick when re-rigging the mainsail!

These days we have a very deep 4th reef in the main. Still no trysail.
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Old 07-05-2013, 19:27   #340
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

In the ‘Sail Choice’ discussion about offshore Storm tactics, I wonder what percentages of cruising yachts out there have furling mains as well as headsail.

That is my case where 3 sails are furling and only the staysail can be changed to a small heavy storm sail.

Obviously a bit too far forward for good balance in storm conditions

What are the suggested heavy weather solutions for yachts who have committed to loose footed furling systems for normal sailing convenience?
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Old 07-05-2013, 19:46   #341
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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What are the suggested heavy weather solutions for yachts who have committed to loose footed furling systems for normal sailing convenience?
Once you get a furling main down to trysail size it becomes a very flat sail because most of the draft is already inside the mast. There are several potential problems using a furling main as a storm sail. First, it may not be built as heavily as a trysail. Second, it's more difficult to control flutter, which means the sail is going to take a beating in a multi-day gale. Finally, there has to be a locking mechanism so that it's not possible for the sail to unfurl in a strong gust.

On the plus side, it's possible to furl the furling main much more quickly and safely than to strike a conventional main and replace it with a trysail, especially when you consider out-of-the-cockpit activity.

One argument in favor of trysails, as you stated earlier, is that they can be substituted as a back-up while the mainsail is being repaired.

Regardless, I think that a trysail-sized furled main is a better option than putting in a fourth reef in a conventional sail.
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Old 07-05-2013, 20:04   #342
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

We do have a very deep 3rd reef, but we do also carry a trisail. But, like other posters above, we carry the trisail as a spare mainsail in the event the main is badly damaged and to provide an option in the case of serious damage to the boom.
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Old 07-05-2013, 21:29   #343
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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.... There are several potential problems using a furling main as a storm sail. First, it may not be built as heavily as a trysail. Second, it's more difficult to control flutter, which means the sail is going to take a beating in a multi-day gale. Finally, there has to be a locking mechanism so that it's not possible for the sail to unfurl in a strong gust.

One argument in favor of trysails, ...... is that they can be substituted as a back-up while the mainsail is being repaired.

Regardless, I think that a trysail-sized furled main is a better option than putting in a fourth reef in a conventional sail.
Good points and I agree with your concerns Bash.

I have only tested SG in about 45 knots coastal with storm staysail and small trysail shaped furled main….Worked great, but I would not want to risk that furled main (especially furling line) in an extended offshore blow that threatened to get worse.

The issue is not just to survive the Storm but to look after your furling gear so that you can continue after it has passed

At anchor or Marina in any pending Typhoon conditions, we lock the furling drums, remove the sheets and put extra lashings on the Clew. If it looks really bad we even take down the furling sails to reduce weight/wind age above

Have been thinking, there must be a better at sea solution.

With Pro-furl system main sail is behind the mast. So I cannot use an extra main halyard to put up a separate trysail

Have thought about rigging between Aft mast to gooseneck of Fwd. Mast…. A removable Trysail Halyard (shown in red) to raise a small storm sail (orange triangle)…. (Like a fisherman) to be loose footed and would use same furled main’s sheets.

Part of me thinks that if it got to that, I would probably heave to with small storms staysail… but as you say, that does give me a back up…
Opinions?
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Old 08-05-2013, 00:58   #344
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

I have the Dutchman sail flaking system. reefing almost doesn't get easier. I have a single line reefing sheet (for both 1st and second reef) led to the cockpit. Lower mainsail halyard, tighten reef sheet - done.

For the coastal sailing we do 2 reef is sifficient, when we circumnavigate, we'll put in a 3rd very deep reef.
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Old 08-05-2013, 02:53   #345
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

Ive gone through several bad blows , F10 approx. using a tiny scrap of mainsail on a in-mast system. In my experience, there is no leech flutter and the sail performs quite well. As my preferred method is to run downwind, it doesnt get a lot of use anyway.

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