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Old 01-05-2013, 12:28   #196
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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Other, much more experienced sailors made (I'm sorry) stupid decisions regarding our predicament. Not one suggested we call for help, but one came VERY close to us (in spite of my insistence that they not do that). One of their crew members was going to try to climb from that boat to mine in these awful conditions, with my boat rocking and rolling all over the place! The guy brought this up four years later and couldn't understand why I didn't want him to do it!

So I'm sorry, guys, but lots of experience and exertise doesn't always mean that's the person to listen to.
true true, but its better then the opposite.

dave
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:29   #197
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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you may be confusing me with others, Im not arguing about spending X or Y. I was trying to emphasise that so much of "heavy weather" techniques are hypothetical or generalised. Often it is the environment that prevents deployment or use of these "tools".
Fair enough. I may have muddled some of the posts. I apologise for that.


I'm not arguing anything to be used as a panacea. It all comes down to situational judgements.


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I personally would never deploy a sail as an sea anchor, way way too difficult to handle. ( and unneccessary)
I'm glad you made that clear
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:30   #198
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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Rambo I'm not... survivalist I am... and if taking on crew for a crossing and getting caught in a blow 1000 miles out is me putting you in that crisis... don't crew on crossings... stay within 5 miles of the coast..
all my crossings have been quite nice, no winds above 55 knots. , some of the atlantic coastal winter trips were very hair raising. Nothing scares me more in a big blow, warps out, dark and a big ship is close in those seas!!!.. give me deep oceans any day LOL

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Old 01-05-2013, 12:33   #199
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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Originally Posted by Caracal View Post
If you practice in heavy weather, you can make preparations if you know the weather will turn from heavy weather to survival conditions. If you have prepared properly by practicing, you will also know wether it would be best to trail it from behind. The series drogue is a good example of something relatively simple being deployed. All I'm hearing from you guys is to shun something because it cost a little money upfront,, while advising people to use their sails instead in those conditions. Penny wise and pound stupid springs to mind.
But the money issue is not all, you're advising against using something like a series drogue because it will be "too difficult to use in a survival storm", while advocating rigging your sails in the same situation.

I can only conclude that these types of arguments springs from some misplaced judgement that because you can use something else than store bought equipment, that automatically makes it more seamanshippy and better.

In short, weather tends to deteriorate, and the prudent skipper will know this, and take any precaution possible, including practice with or without dedicated gear (yes, including having practiced with using your sails as a drogue if that is your option).

I have two drogues that can be connected, but they can also be rigged to the headsail winches and be used to steer should I lose the rudder (PLEASE Neptune not a third time -- go pick on someone else!!!) -- but really, the option is there.

When this shoulder is fully healed I'm going to go out with a very experienced friend -- as in, someone who has actually done that -- and test it, see how it works best on MY boat, so I already know how much line to put out, etc.

Another time we're going to go out and experiment with the para-anchor. Of course, if that baby kept me secure in a bad storm and I had to cut it loose at the end, my boat and the people on it would still be safe, and I didn't pay that much for it. There's just no point in having these things but not knowing how they work, and how they work on your boat.

If worse comes to worse, you can leave it out after the storm is over and just wait another day for the waves to subside and have a much easier time bringing it in. The world would keep on spinning.
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:49   #200
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
true true, but its better then the opposite.

dave

We'll have to agree to disagree. That man trying to climb onto my boat scared the bejeeezuz out of me. I also had someone with "more experience" INSISTING that I move the boat closer to shore in a storm. He had a lot of bad ideas. He had some good ideas too, but he just wore me out never accepting any opinion but his own. The storm was forming over us and the wind could have shifted at any time -- and our engine was undependable.

This was the person I would have put off at the next marina if we'd been able to continue. I could have reasoned with the woman who thought the surfing and broaching were so much fun. She was very new to sailing and just didn't realize the danger.
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:50   #201
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
all my crossings have been quite nice, no winds above 55 knots. , some of the atlantic coastal winter trips were very hair raising. Nothing scares me more in a big blow, warps out, dark and a big ship is close in those seas!!!.. give me deep oceans any day LOL

dave
One of the biggest risks of coastal cruising is ... the coast!
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:54   #202
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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This was the person I would have put off at the next marina if we'd been able to continue. I could have reasoned with the woman who thought the surfing and broaching were so much fun. She was very new to sailing and just didn't realize the danger.
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sounds like a hell of a story. Nothing like crew dynamics to f^&k things up. ( as I said)
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Old 01-05-2013, 13:16   #203
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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sounds like a hell of a story. Nothing like crew dynamics to f^&k things up. ( as I said)

Just like all newer sailors, I thought I had it all figured out. I had sailed several times with this fellow -- enough to know his limits. We raced his little 25' Cape Dory once. The wind was up to 20 mph and I asked him if we were going to reef her. "No," he said, "and that is why we're going to win!"

Well, we didn't win, but he did blow the foot out of his mainsail. Gotta say, his boat sailed sideways really well.

So I knew going into this that he was not an expert. Of course I deferred to him on his boat, but I hadn't spotted that he expected me to defer to him on my boat -- in all seriousness because I was female! Really!

Didn't see that one coming.

Our goal was Key West and the Tortugas, and my other crew member was a retired State Trooper -- the first female state trooper to be hired in that state. You can imagine how his attitudes toward women went over with her ...
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Old 01-05-2013, 13:44   #204
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Just like all newer sailors, I thought I had it all figured out. I had sailed several times with this fellow -- enough to know his limits. We raced his little 25' Cape Dory once. The wind was up to 20 mph and I asked him if we were going to reef her. "No," he said, "and that is why we're going to win!"

Well, we didn't win, but he did blow the foot out of his mainsail. Gotta say, his boat sailed sideways really well.

So I knew going into this that he was not an expert. Of course I deferred to him on his boat, but I hadn't spotted that he expected me to defer to him on my boat -- in all seriousness because I was female! Really!

Didn't see that one coming.

Our goal was Key West and the Tortugas, and my other crew member was a retired State Trooper -- the first female state trooper to be hired in that state. You can imagine how his attitudes toward women went over with her ...
i find competent women to be better then competent men , as a rule
better team players too
dave
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Old 01-05-2013, 14:03   #205
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pirate Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
i find competent women to be better then competent men , as a rule
better team players too
dave
Why do you think I get female crew whenever possible... cleaner, cook better and more varied and interesting conversations... and a damn sight more stamina..
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Old 01-05-2013, 14:05   #206
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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i find competent women to be better then competent men , as a rule
better team players too
dave

I really think there's a part of it for some men that they're out there to prove themselves, and ... that's a block to collaboration. I have also found that men are quick to want to take over for a woman (the guy I would have put off the boat was an extreme example of that; he's not typical and I don't mean to tar all men by describing him).

I have to admit that it's pretty annoying when some guy who hasn't been on my boat before tells me what my boat is going to do. One fellow told me when we were moving along at 3k -- no there's no point in putting out the headsail. It will only add 1/2 - 1kt to our speed.

So we made a bet, and put it out. Boat jumped to 6 1/2 kt. Then he started tweaking, and got her up to 7 ...
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Old 01-05-2013, 17:34   #207
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

Good example of crew dynamics in this thread relating to sailing in South Australia.

Skipper ended up offloading / abandoned by his crew to his relief.

Beating Home Alone and oh so Slow

Recall another story of a Lagoon cat crossing Tasman from Aust to NZ. Sat out a storm under sea anchor close to NZ no drama except crewpanic - thought they were going down. Skipper ended up having to getting crew (couple) airlifted off they were so distraght. Soon after that conditions improved such that he was able to resume trip.

Cat had no damage. Don't imagine they even sailed with him again
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Old 01-05-2013, 18:02   #208
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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Good example of crew dynamics in this thread relating to sailing in South Australia.

Skipper ended up offloading / abandoned by his crew to his relief.

Beating Home Alone and oh so Slow

Recall another story of a Lagoon cat crossing Tasman from Aust to NZ. Sat out a storm under sea anchor close to NZ no drama except crewpanic - thought they were going down. Skipper ended up having to getting crew (couple) airlifted off they were so distraght. Soon after that conditions improved such that he was able to resume trip.

Cat had no damage. Don't imagine they even sailed with him again

Not if he has a lick of sense!

Aren't storms/rough seas fairly common there? I would want to know what to expect on such a trip, and I would have to have great confidence in the skipper. No doubt I would ask questions, but if they even *could* be airlifted off it can't have been that bad.
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Old 01-05-2013, 19:59   #209
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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Not if he has a lick of sense!

Aren't storms/rough seas fairly common there? I would want to know what to expect on such a trip, and I would have to have great confidence in the skipper. No doubt I would ask questions, but if they even *could* be airlifted off it can't have been that bad.
It wasn't.
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Old 02-05-2013, 01:39   #210
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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I agree with you. If something dangerous has to be done on deck, it's the skipper's responsibility to do it. So far Ive only had to do it on a smaller level, but that's how it has to be if you're a truly responsible boat owner.
Actually, it is the skippers responsibility to assign the task to the crew member best suited for the job (which might be himself, or it might not).

Having command, means deploying and using your resources to their maximum capabilities. It does not entail doing everything yourself (you're a terrible skipper if you haven't trained your crew).

My wife is a former national level gymnast. Her sense of balance is far superior to mine. It only makes sense to send her if balance is a key issue. I'm stronger, so it makes sense to send me if pure muscle power is the key.

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