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Old 30-04-2013, 22:36   #166
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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I favor the more passive approaches for shorthanded cruisers. Probably for no better reason than that I like reading and dislike getting wet...
+1. Unless by "reading" you mean grading papers.
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Old 30-04-2013, 22:38   #167
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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The idea of helmets is making more and more sense. I know this sounds stupid -- but do they make sailing helmets? If not, what would be a good substitute?
Cowboy hats. I recommend Resistol.
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Old 01-05-2013, 00:47   #168
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
Has anyone experimented with using the engine, in reverse, to ease the retrieval load from a stern-deployed drogue?

I'm thinking particularly in the early stages of retrieval of a series drogue in bad conditions on a biggish boat. I know sometimes people have given up because they found the loads so difficult to manage.
Here is something..

By me: Seaworthiness - Page 65 - Boat Design Forums

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I can aswell put the idea out here so it's for the common benefit if it happens to work.
It's basicly a series droque but the cones have a hole at the bottom. Throw the cone holes goes the retrieval line which, when collected, packs up all the cones one by one starting from the last one and turns them over cone end pointing to boat. Other advantage is the possibility of "reefing" the droque if full length isn't needed. Having two droques makes even possible to steer which direction boat is drifting.
Another though is having this kind of drogue ready packed up for use (as a parachute) in a tube having a "hatch" in the bottom of the boat so it could be used without necessity of going outside. This could be used esp. in lifeboats
From Jordan Series Drogue - Launching and Retrieval

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Retrieving the Drogue, 2008
The previous section describes the most effective method of retrieving the drogue that I have been able to obtain. However, the process is still a chore. In July 2008 I heard about a skipper and his wife who had been forced to abandon his 39 ft. boat after being battered by a series of storms in the vicinity of Cape Horn . They deployed the drogue three times and retrieved it three times, under conditions that might have induced an average skipper to deploy the drogue.
It took 11/2 hours to get it in the first time, but the able and creative skipper devised an improved strategy which enabled him to retrieve it with little trauma in half an hour.
I asked him how he had done this remarkable feat and he sent me the following information.
First: Before launching the drogue he attached a light line to the apex of the drogue bridle... When retrieving the drogue, he winched this line in first and took the load off the cleats.
Second: He winched the drogue in using a large genoa winch, A Barlow 32. This did not tear the cones.
He had first tried the anchor windlass but this had torn a couple of cones and had problems with the boat sailing from side to side. I would certainly suggest that skippers try his method. If so I would appreciate a short report on the results. Donaldjordan 1916@comcast.net.
BR Teddy
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Old 01-05-2013, 01:00   #169
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

Interesting idea, (pulling the cones 'inside out' - a la Baron Munchausen with the wolves...) - I had a similar idea, which I posted a year or two back, on the Attainable Adventure Cruising site.

It seems to overcome the problem of a separate retrieval line tangling, and like you, I like the idea of being able to modulate the drag at will.
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Old 01-05-2013, 05:13   #170
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pirate Re: Storm Sailing Advice

I agree that fatigue is a major factor for many cruisers... for 'us' who make a living on the sea its an everyday thing so to speak.. stamina is built up over time and one can go for days on bare minimums to survive... however the 'amateurs' are used to a body clock for food... eg; 8am, 1pm, 7pm and so on... when these are not possible moral deteriorates rapidly..
It happens often on owner assisted deliveries in relatively normal conditions... F6-7's and exhaustion soon sets in.. followed by fear and irrational demands/decisions which the skipper has to deal with firmly.
I will not let folk on deck in weather... if anything needs doing I do it.. tethers are fine but they won't stop you shattering your legs as the deck drops out from under you and you follow the boat down through the air only to meet it as it comes back up hard and sudden... knowing instinctively how to land with knees bent, how to respond/move quickly and defensively yet do what needs to be done can only be theorised about... all the reading in the world will not compensate for your bodies natural responses that have been learned on dry land over a lifetime.
Where the pro can stay on for 24+hrs at a time without food or rest.. the amateurs deteriorate rapidly to a state where even half an hour is to much.
Yes I am somewhat flip as Raku says... but to me much of this is the same as the person who gets on a boat and comes out with something like... "How do you know which way the winds coming from..?"...
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Old 01-05-2013, 07:11   #171
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I would agree with boatman, all, the " techniques " and " gear" in the word are no substitute for experience. In my experience crew dynamics are the deciding factor, not what you have stored away in a locker. Passive techniques are almost always resorted to out of either fear or fatigue or both. That's not to say they can't work , but often its a decision process based on the wrong things.

Discussions about gear miss the point, you have enough " gear" in a few long warps. The rest is mostly experience , techniques and mental fortitude.

I personally find that a huge responsibility falls on the skipper as often the crew do not have the mental or physical stamina to continue. However I don't beleive that 24, 36 h ,48h straight without sleep is good practice for anyone , I've done it at sea, buts its not pretty

Quite frankly , as an amateur , if you don't have ( some) crew that can manage the task , you are in deep trouble and can be forced into passive techniques , most of which are luck based. I have seen it myself and it ain't pretty.

You cannot " buy" things that save a boat , only " do" things.

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Old 01-05-2013, 07:31   #172
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pirate Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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I don't beleive that 24, 36 h ,48h straight without sleep is good practice for anyone , I've done it at sea, buts its not pretty
Dave
I've never been pretty...
But yup... a 'Can Do' attitude is all important... 90% will fall into the 'Can't Do' all to quickly...
Short of a Titanic situation most anything can be 'Got Around' if one has the right mind set..
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:15   #173
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

In order to be realistic, sometimes you do have to have the things to be able to apply your knowledge. It doesn't matter that you have all the knowledge in the world on how to set a parachute anchor if you do not have a parachute anchor.

In other words, although knowledge is a large part of handling "stuff" coming up, the gear matters too. I hate to put a percentage on it, because to me that doesn't make sense at all: If you don't have the gear, all the knowledge in world about that gear is useless.
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:25   #174
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
I agree that fatigue is a major factor for many cruisers... for 'us' who make a living on the sea its an everyday thing so to speak.. stamina is built up over time and one can go for days on bare minimums to survive... however the 'amateurs' are used to a body clock for food... eg; 8am, 1pm, 7pm and so on... when these are not possible moral deteriorates rapidly..
It happens often on owner assisted deliveries in relatively normal conditions... F6-7's and exhaustion soon sets in.. followed by fear and irrational demands/decisions which the skipper has to deal with firmly.
I will not let folk on deck in weather... if anything needs doing I do it.. tethers are fine but they won't stop you shattering your legs as the deck drops out from under you and you follow the boat down through the air only to meet it as it comes back up hard and sudden... knowing instinctively how to land with knees bent, how to respond/move quickly and defensively yet do what needs to be done can only be theorised about... all the reading in the world will not compensate for your bodies natural responses that have been learned on dry land over a lifetime.
Where the pro can stay on for 24+hrs at a time without food or rest.. the amateurs deteriorate rapidly to a state where even half an hour is to much.
Yes I am somewhat flip as Raku says... but to me much of this is the same as the person who gets on a boat and comes out with something like... "How do you know which way the winds coming from..?"...

I agree with you. If something dangerous has to be done on deck, it's the skipper's responsibility to do it. So far Ive only had to do it on a smaller level, but that's how it has to be if you're a truly responsible boat owner.
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:05   #175
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

it doesnt take long to develop experience--it does take actively going out and doing it. talking and walking that talk are 2 different situations entirely.
once out in heavy weather , it is your choice to continue or to quit and wait. quitting and waiting is not always the best option. there are many things to consider before making the decision to quit an wait or to continue sailing.
loading one's body for a passage is something some actually learn easily--it makes sense--load on food -- carbs and protein before a trip and nap as much as possible before leaving the harbor.
with my heavy displacement cruising ketch i can tolerate larger seas and brisker winds than most sloops and cutters--i can still cook in my galley in 20 kt winds. this boat was built for this--many sailing today were not.

what is done in a boat with an engine is a lot different that what one does in a boat without an engine, but each technique should be learned as engines are not as reliable as one would have you believe.
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:35   #176
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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I've never been pretty...
But yup... a 'Can Do' attitude is all important... 90% will fall into the 'Can't Do' all to quickly...
Short of a Titanic situation most anything can be 'Got Around' if one has the right mind set..
Yeaah, you can be "flip," but that also makes you entertaining, and I bet you're a lot of fun at a party.

For me, it really is a matter of knowing my limits and not pushing my crew too hard. I watched a guy who had sailed his "dead engine" boat for 24 hours straight from Key West ... try to sail it just a BIT more -- through an unforgiving channel. A motorboat cut him off when he needed to tack to stay in the channel, and ... thump ... he was really aground. It was avoidable, but he didn't realize he'd passed his limit, because less tired he would have remembered that happens in that channel all the time. He was really close to home. I saw it because we were out there to give him a tow the rest of the way, and he told us on the radio that he just "wanted" to sail a little longer. I get it, too. He was justifiably proud of all he had pulled off on that trip.

I'm not as experienced as a lot of people here, but I've been in a couple of storms that ... got my attention. For me, it's knowing when to stop the destination sailing, and do what helps the boat ride the storm as well as possible. I'll probably drop the destination sailing a lot sooner than many here, but that's what would be right for me. That's a matter of knowing what you, personally, can and cannot do dependably and reliably, and when you're overtired, you could over-estimate that OR under-estimate that.

I think it's better not to get that tired if it's possible. But if I were on your boat, I would do what you told me to do. I wouldn't start lecturing you on what I thought you should do because it's what I would do. If I don't trust the skipper, I won't sail on that boat.

I'm taking in everything everyone says here, but I'm not going to push myself as hard as some of you here would, because that's not what would be right ... for me.
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:40   #177
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

flippancy comes from experience in the situations about which one is able to become flippant. is a form of dark humor--without it, life is kinda a downer. dark humor and flippancy improve the situation and make one laugh loudly in situations which are otherwise crappy.
i would rather sail with a flippant arshooligan than with an ocd addled perfectionist without sense of humor.
is all a choice one chooses to make.
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:56   #178
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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I agree with you. If something dangerous has to be done on deck, it's the skipper's responsibility to do it. So far Ive only had to do it on a smaller level, but that's how it has to be if you're a truly responsible boat owner.
No actually , you send the best person, generals are not always the best shots.

Just to get back to Boatmans position, Im not in his mode a kind of sailing rambo. Ive sailed with several and yes they are great people in a crisis.

Unfortunately they are often the people that put you in the crisis in the first place.

I once sailed with a fantastic "can do" delivery skipper , a great man in a blow and I learned loads. I learned loads, because he habitually ignored weather forecasts!!!.

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Old 01-05-2013, 11:01   #179
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

ignoring weather forecasts can be a good thing. sometimes, in fact, many times, the reports i have received have been entirely off base and incorrect.
those who have ability DO stuff, and the rest of us wait it out. is all the individual and is all the timing.
i sail with a wonderfully derelict sailor who is a knows everything kinda guy a lot like boaty only shorter by a bit----lol...but, he is good. smart and knows his stuff. that is more than important. one soul can only do so much--with a knows everything kinda soul, you WILL make it home safely despite conditions. and despite your own hidden or otherwise insecurities.
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:04   #180
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Re: Storm Sailing Advice

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In other words, although knowledge is a large part of handling "stuff" coming up, the gear matters too. I hate to put a percentage on it, because to me that doesn't make sense at all: If you don't have the gear, all the knowledge in world about that gear is useless.
No I disagree. A well found boat, ie one where you do not experience mechanical or structural disintegration, can be got through survival storms without "gear". However even with "gear" a lack of experience ( and luck) will loose any craft.

Lets look at specific gear, say parachute anchor. Specifically one from the bow, How many people have rigged one , and more importantly kept one rigged in a serious survival blow. ( I term survival blow as a gale where you no longer beleive you can sail towards the destination in any manner).

Yet we persist in talking about "gear" , yet so few have any experience of rigging them and using them in such storms. This is of course, becuase it so much easier to focus on "things" as a solution then looking at the dubious water filled carbon life forms.

My experience is that crew dynamics are a huge factor in the survivability of a vessel, by far the largest factor in my experience. This is often unspoken after the boat survives, because no one wants to start arguing. even more so if there is loss of life.

Discussions about drogue this and sea-anchor that are all very well. Its not the issue in my experience.

dave
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