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Old 28-02-2013, 22:33   #61
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For an observer astern what, exactly, is the difference between an anchor light and an all around white light? Both appear identical. Both place the same burden on an approaching vessel, no?
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:19   #62
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Originally Posted by daddle
For an observer astern what, exactly, is the difference between an anchor light and an all around white light? Both appear identical. Both place the same burden on an approaching vessel, no?
Excellent question.

Absolutely, they are similar but the difference being if you are displaying your stern light to a vessel while under way you are both maneuverable and reducing the time of collision by traveling at speed in the same direction giving a longer response time. Another difference is the height of the stern light appearing lower than the horizon for a longer distance which also can add a longer response time for an approaching vessel. But the main thing is you are able to maneuver.
Again for a lot of use we are under 12m so the regulation doesn't apply and you would likely not have the appropriate lighting unless you specifically set up to. Of course then were talking about having 3 lights equally separated by 1m so a light assembly 2m high. Not very practical on most recreational boats. So what's the alternative? Technically you are making way so you have to light appropriately at the same time you want to indicate you are not as a normal maneuverable vessel. I know it's not correct but if I had only my standard lights and I could afford the power consumption I'd turn them all on. At least the approaching vessel would have more chance of seeing me early and also would see confusing lights. This should be a red flag and make them at least wonder what is this guy doing? Likely resulting in giving a wide berth, slowing down, making radio contact etc.
technically not correct and not the only possible solution. I'm still interested In a more col reg conforming light set up I'm working on. It may end up not being col reg standards but as close as particle. I too am not thinking about lawyers rather just safety.
BTW in Australia we are not allowed to use strobes lights. So I've not seen any yachts here equipped with one. I'd love to hear about other Ozzies with experience with strobes though. I'd think in our waters it might be seen as a distress signal if it was far off from all other flashing sequences. Thoughts? Personally out at sea I would think a strobe would grab attention and would draw less power too. Again not conforming to collision regs. I'm going to go now and look again at the use of a strobe according to the col regs.

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Old 01-03-2013, 04:41   #63
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Ah while looking for the regs on strobes I looked over rule

Rule 36 - Signals to attract attention
If necessary to attract the attention of another vessel any vessel may make light or sound signals that cannot be mistaken for any signal authorized elsewhere in these Rules, or may direct the beam of her searchlight in the direction of the danger, in such a way as not to embarrass any vessel. Any light to attract the attention of another vessel shall be such that it cannot be mistaken for any aid to navigation. For the purpose of this Rule the use of high intensity intermittent or revolving lights, such as strobe lights, shall be avoided.
So I read this that if I were to do what I said turning all lights on would actually comply to col regs here. rule 36 is separate from rules for distress signaling so this is not the reason for attracting attention. However a passing ship may try to make contact to ensure you are not in distress. Not a bad thing either IMHO.
Thoughts?
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Old 01-03-2013, 05:04   #64
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Re: Heavy weather tactics. Anyone want to share experience with sea anchors or warps

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Originally Posted by mischief View Post
Ah while looking for the regs on strobes I looked over rule

Rule 36 - Signals to attract attention
If necessary to attract the attention of another vessel any vessel may make light or sound signals that cannot be mistaken for any signal authorized elsewhere in these Rules, or may direct the beam of her searchlight in the direction of the danger, in such a way as not to embarrass any vessel. Any light to attract the attention of another vessel shall be such that it cannot be mistaken for any aid to navigation. For the purpose of this Rule the use of high intensity intermittent or revolving lights, such as strobe lights, shall be avoided.
So I read this that if I were to do what I said turning all lights on would actually comply to col regs here. rule 36 is separate from rules for distress signaling so this is not the reason for attracting attention. However a passing ship may try to make contact to ensure you are not in distress. Not a bad thing either IMHO.
Thoughts?
My thinking is if I were lying on a sea anchor I'd be using my cockpit and other LED lights to light up my entire deck. It certainly should attract the attention of others out there on the waters with me. Of course I now also have an AIS transponder which I think would help with some of the BIG guys out there.
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Old 01-03-2013, 05:20   #65
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Re: Heavy weather tactics. Anyone want to share experience with sea anchors or warps

Quote:
Originally Posted by mischief View Post
Some points to ponder regarding lights.

First off please don't just use an anchor light according to the col regs It is only for use when made fast to shore or ground. Plus it is a light that could most resemble a star.
As far as not having the right lights goes, well if you believe the col regs are there to help avoiding collisions then its your choice if you choose to follow them or not. Having said that most lights such as NUC and RAM towing etc under the col regs apply to vessels over 12m. But you can still use them if you choose.
Another thing about determining what lights you should use. Under the col regs all vessels are covered and all conditions. So under sea anchor you do fit into a category and its the responsibility of the skipper to best determine which category that is and act accordingly. It's not good enough to think its not covered in the col regs.
Be safe have a think and see what your comfortable with. We and others can live or die by our actions and consequences.

Just my opinion and may only be worth exactly what it cost

Cheers
Sorry, but this is entirely incorrect. The Colregs are for all boats (including canoes and kayaks) not just those over 12 meters. You also do NOT have any choice in the matter - you must obey them when on the water.

Few recreational boats have towing signals/NUC/RAM/etc. but that is because we are too cheap to buy them and only rarely have a use for them.

Try sailing in german waters with you mainsail up and your engine on, without an upside down triangle. you will get a fair bit of attention should the coasts meet up with you

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Old 01-03-2013, 05:41   #66
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Re: Heavy weather tactics. Anyone want to share experience with sea anchors or warps

Please take into consideration that a sailboat becalmed is not "making way". Thus, the sailboat is not maneuverable and no combination of lights will make it maneuverable. Further, the lights on a vessel move very differently from planets and stars and are unlikely to mistaken for such by an experienced mariner. Finally, no competent mariner would ever run over any lighted object regardless of how it was lighted.

So, on that dark and stormy night at sea, when you are laying to your sea anchor, with your engine disabled and no electricity, light and hoist your kerosene lamp into the rigging as the col regs allow. You do carry some form of weather proof self powered all around light, right?

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Old 01-03-2013, 06:51   #67
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Re: Heavy weather tactics. Anyone want to share experience with sea anchors or warps

About using a strobe when lying to....( ahull, sea anchor, etc...)
think about it this way from a big vessels point of view. Its dead night, and u see a strobe close to you. That is a sign of distress, then you are obliged to submit assistance. You start checking your instruments, between ranging, radar, ais ... and radio to establish any communicafion and extra information about the vessel in distress..by that time the ships course is altered towards the vessel in distress, at this point probably not with an accurate range neither visual nor by instruments. So the bad part is what if no radio comms was succesfull? The ship will be drawn unto collision due to the continuous travel of the small boat, and due to one or more types of disorientation encountered in night nav.
thats me thinking from a ships perspective.
netter solution: use the biggest and brightest all around ligjt yoiu can afford...and of course keep radar on watch mode, ais ( pays to have the xponder) and radio on. The last thing id be worried about every nigjt is my batteries.
I use a keroseen prrsure lampand also all myy deck ligjts spreader ligjts and ironically my nav lights, cz im still underway
good luck
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Old 01-03-2013, 15:34   #68
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The red over green is always an option. clearly gives you right of way over all power driven v/l's except FV. nuc ram and cbd. and also useful when you are sailing.

A freind is setting this up with LED strip lights stuck around his mast. very simple lightweight solution. By adding a red strip at the bottom as well as the green you could also go NUC easily for that extreme storm.. or rudder failure.

The biggest problem with the red/green colored lights is the human eye's poor ability to pick them up as clearly as a white light. So you might need a few strips of leds to make it bright enough to be visible for 5 miles or so.
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Old 01-03-2013, 15:49   #69
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Originally Posted by carstenb

Sorry, but this is entirely incorrect. The Colregs are for all boats (including canoes and kayaks) not just those over 12 meters. You also do NOT have any choice in the matter - you must obey them when on the water.

Few recreational boats have towing signals/NUC/RAM/etc. but that is because we are too cheap to buy them and only rarely have a use for them.

Try sailing in german waters with you mainsail up and your engine on, without an upside down triangle. you will get a fair bit of attention should the coasts meet up with you

Actually you better check again. You may not have read the entire posts if you did you would see I stated the col regs apply to all vessels and we agree here. I also said there is a category for everything and its not good enough to say such and such doesn't apply because its not in the regs. Because everything is in the regs and its the skipper or captains role to determine what is the best category and act accordingly. In case of incident the courts will decide if the decision was correct. But read reg 27 (g) I will put it below for you its in regards NUC and RAM which is what I was directly talking about.

(g) Vessels of less than 12 metres in length, except those engaged in diving operations, shall not be required to exhibit the lights and shapes prescribed in this Rule.
(h) The signals prescribed in this Rule are not signals of vessels in distress and requiring assistance. Such signals are contained in Annex IV to these Regulations.

I can see how it may have looked like I was saying the regs don't apply to boats under 12m but obviously that's not the case but under 12m are not required to display all combinations of lights that over 12m boats may have to.
And agree everyone should have other means of lighting. I do carry both kero anchor lights and pressure lamps, back up portable battery navigation lights along with search and personal back up lights. Oh and portable battery operated strobes, flares etc. mmmmmm I think tho we are getting to far off topic discussing the appropriate lights.
I think it was good it was brought up, not good if it takes over.

Lets all agree the appropriate lights to display are in the col regs and its our responsibility to determine what that is. If we have a specific question on display perhaps we should start a separate thread.
Please don't take this like I'm trying to act the authority or get the last word in on this. Just I am going to bow out now on the lighting and give respect to the OP.
fair winds
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Old 04-03-2013, 03:40   #70
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Re: Heavy weather tactics. Anyone want to share experience with sea anchors or warps

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Actually you better check again. You may not have read the entire posts if you did you would see I stated the col regs apply to all vessels and we agree here. I also said there is a category for everything and its not good enough to say such and such doesn't apply because its not in the regs. Because everything is in the regs and its the skipper or captains role to determine what is the best category and act accordingly. In case of incident the courts will decide if the decision was correct. But read reg 27 (g) I will put it below for you its in regards NUC and RAM which is what I was directly talking about.

(g) Vessels of less than 12 metres in length, except those engaged in diving operations, shall not be required to exhibit the lights and shapes prescribed in this Rule.
(h) The signals prescribed in this Rule are not signals of vessels in distress and requiring assistance. Such signals are contained in Annex IV to these Regulations.

I can see how it may have looked like I was saying the regs don't apply to boats under 12m but obviously that's not the case but under 12m are not required to display all combinations of lights that over 12m boats may have to.
And agree everyone should have other means of lighting. I do carry both kero anchor lights and pressure lamps, back up portable battery navigation lights along with search and personal back up lights. Oh and portable battery operated strobes, flares etc. mmmmmm I think tho we are getting to far off topic discussing the appropriate lights.
I think it was good it was brought up, not good if it takes over.

Lets all agree the appropriate lights to display are in the col regs and its our responsibility to determine what that is. If we have a specific question on display perhaps we should start a separate thread.
Please don't take this like I'm trying to act the authority or get the last word in on this. Just I am going to bow out now on the lighting and give respect to the OP.
fair winds
Sorry if I misunderstood you. I believe ( I don't have my Regs book with me here at work), that boats under 7 meters are relieved of certain lighting requirements.

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Old 04-03-2013, 05:37   #71
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pirate Re: Heavy weather tactics. Anyone want to share experience with sea anchors or warps

From memory the only light obligatory for a sailing vessel under 12 metres is an all round white at the mast head...
Anymore is up to us... ie: 90*red-90*green-180*white...
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Old 04-03-2013, 07:01   #72
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Re: Heavy weather tactics. Anyone want to share experience with sea anchors or warps

Fascinating posts,I was off Cape Finisterre taking the Borkum Riff gaff schooner 60 tons Bermuda to Thames,we were caught in a northerly gale tried motoring into seas no good so put storm jib up ran & lost 70m.down wind it got worse so found some massive 4" dia. mooring lines about 100' long also some massive coir fenders,deployed one line off each quarter with fender on ends peace it was amazing until a huge ship ran straight at us he eventualy got our position lights not much use in that weather,then destroyed our moral by saying F10 going 11 we survived & made it to Coruna where a surveyer forbid us to sail on (We did of course) RIEAA.
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Old 04-03-2013, 15:42   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb

Sorry if I misunderstood you. I believe ( I don't have my Regs book with me here at work), that boats under 7 meters are relieved of certain lighting requirements.

No Problem,
Thank you for not taking offense to my post. After re reading it I could see it may have come off a bit snippy but I assure you it wasn't meant that way and you did not seem to take it as such. Whew.
Fair winds
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