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Old 19-05-2016, 11:28   #46
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Re: Do I really need a barometer? Which one?

Real sailors keep a log book and record barometrics daily if not more frequently. Hourly if there is a change in the readings. A mechanical barometer is not decorative at all.For long distance cruising its an essential tool.

You can sail as a pleasure cruiser without regard for proper piloting or you can be professional and maintain proper procedures. A manual, large faced barometer is there to be noticed in case there is a sudden change in weather. It is one of the best forecasting tools a sailor will have. Guess you also do not care for a chronometer on board. Probably do not even carry a full medical treatment cabinet.

Reminds me when we met some "sailors" on their shiny new sailboat sitting at customs for hours. We zipped through. Afterwards my wife, who speaks Russian, said the customs guys were miffed that the "sailors" did not have the respect of flying the courtesy soviet flag when they entered the port. For that, the rather stupid "sailors"(Americans at that) would be waiting a long time to get through customs. So please try to be professional if you are going to skipper around the world.
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Old 19-05-2016, 11:28   #47
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Re: Do I really need a barometer? Which one?

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Originally Posted by Calif.Ted View Post
The inexpensive weather stations have the benefit of multiple small remote temperature sensors also, I keep one in the refrigerator to insure that essential beverages are kept properly chilled.
Wow! I have one sensor and did not know what To do with it. Now I know...kkkkk
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Old 19-05-2016, 12:04   #48
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Re: Do I really need a barometer? Which one?

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Real sailors keep a log book and record barometrics daily if not more frequently. . . .
I guess I'm not a "real sailor"

I'm glad to have found that out before it's too late; thanks


I'm not sure what logging only once a day would accomplish, however.
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Old 19-05-2016, 12:08   #49
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Re: Do I really need a barometer? Which one?

Can a boro reading every few hours detect short squalls in the tropics or are we talking only larger storms systems?

Maybe the larger question is: I have a graph, now what? What patterns am I looking for and what will (and what won't) be detected?


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Old 19-05-2016, 12:27   #50
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Re: Do I really need a barometer? Which one?

What you are looking for is a change in pressure. It does not matter how accurate the barometer is, what matters is the rate of the change in the pressure. Thus, it is easier to spot this with a graph plotted for you on a cheapo barograph, but professionals do write the BP in the log every hour.
If the pressure is steady then the weather will continue as it is. When there is a change up it will usually get better, but if there is a change down then it will get worse ie the wind strength. The quicker the pressure drops then the greater the squall will be. It is the change in pressure from one location to another that makes the wind flow faster.
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Old 19-05-2016, 12:48   #51
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Re: Do I really need a barometer? Which one?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I guess I'm not a "real sailor"

I'm glad to have found that out before it's too late; thanks


I'm not sure what logging only once a day would accomplish, however.
Well its probably for the best that you know now rather than later when others' lives depend on your piloting skills. Once a day would not be of much use but for someone starting out its good to start someplace. Usually a change of watch(four hours give or take) or whenever an event occurs.

If someone is really serious about becoming proficient at seamanship, its always good to copy the practices of master mariners. That is what we did a long time ago. Tom Moran let us aboard his boats to watch, observe, and ask a lot of questions about the world of master mariners. We later got the chance to sail with some old salts to learn before going off on our own.

Long distance sailing is so much better when you are proficient in seamanship and piloting. Safer also. A lot of folks nowadays seem to seal themselves up glued to their electronics and act like passengers on their long cruises. Much better to read the ocean, feel the weather, and listen to the boat.
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Old 19-05-2016, 14:21   #52
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Re: Do I really need a barometer? Which one?

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Originally Posted by reed1v View Post
Well its probably for the best that you know now rather than later when others' lives depend on your piloting skills. Once a day would not be of much use but for someone starting out its good to start someplace. Usually a change of watch(four hours give or take) or whenever an event occurs.

If someone is really serious about becoming proficient at seamanship, its always good to copy the practices of master mariners. That is what we did a long time ago. Tom Moran let us aboard his boats to watch, observe, and ask a lot of questions about the world of master mariners. We later got the chance to sail with some old salts to learn before going off on our own.

Long distance sailing is so much better when you are proficient in seamanship and piloting. Safer also. A lot of folks nowadays seem to seal themselves up glued to their electronics and act like passengers on their long cruises. Much better to read the ocean, feel the weather, and listen to the boat.
Maybe I'm to old and dumb to understand all of the electronics but your last paragraph about sums it up, in my mind. I thought sailing should be fun. I'm sure there must be a simulator app. for electronic sailing.
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Old 19-05-2016, 16:46   #53
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Re: Do I really need a barometer? Which one?

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Well its probably for the best that you know now rather than later when others' lives depend on your piloting skills. . . .
If someone is really serious about becoming proficient at seamanship, its always good to copy the practices of master mariners. That is what we did a long time ago. . .
So does that mean I have to get rid of my electronic barographs?

And other's lives depend on it?

I sure wish I could become proficient at seamanship, somehow.
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Old 19-05-2016, 17:58   #54
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Re: Do I really need a barometer? Which one?

I log barographic pressure every 5 seconds. Beat that with yer paper logbook.


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Old 19-05-2016, 18:14   #55
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Re: Do I really need a barometer? Which one?

Logging stuff is interesting. In this day and age its probably not strictly needed, and you can get by without. I generally have the log written up at the end of each watch. It has a number of purposes, but one of them is education and awareness.

By making crew write up the log with things like baro, engine temps, windspeed, cloudcover, battery voltage etc you are getting them engaged and looking at stuff they may not otherwise even look at or consider.

I think its a good habit to be in for longer passages with crew, even if you have continous electronic data logging of many of these things.

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Old 19-05-2016, 18:46   #56
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Re: Do I really need a barometer? Which one?

Dockhead,
I have a question, based on your comments in response to my postings in this thread (& others).
Which is it: Am I some curmudgeon, practicing outdated, arcane traditions with little value? Or a man with some valuable wisdoms to offer?

For in this thread, you’ve switched your position multiple times, regarding my & others comments herein. And when doing so, you have shown little restraint in belittling other posters, & myself. Both openly, & underhandedly; via sarcasm, & other means.
A trait which certainly doesn’t fall within the forum’s “be nice” policy. And which, coming from a Moderator, is that much more flagrant.

Coupled with that. To my recollection, I've shown no gaps in my credibility, veracity, or knowledge, since joining these forums. Rather, quite the opposite. And yet, you commonly, publicly dismiss or snub my commentaries, & freely shared wisdoms. Ditto regarding the posts of other members.
Including scrutinizing my posts in this thread, all the way down to the grammar level.


You make such comments, & adopt said positions, only to later switch to the polar opposing views & modes of thinking. As is easily, & readily seen in this thread.
Often one’s which I had earlier advocated, but that at the time, you denigrated vehemently & loudly; sans cause, or factual basis.

And you’ve even, done as much, with regards to how you now rig your own boat. Following the same above patterns. A trend, which has transpired throughout many, many posts & a multiplicity of threads. Which, I might add, says some “interesting” things about your “character”, & behaviors.


But most importantly, you’ve belittled members & downplayed their posts which advocated matters of common sense safety. Me included.
Positions which from the outset I strongly advocated, but you again stated as being insignificant.

Even going so far as to proclaim that a barometer has no place onboard a vessel. Which, IMO, truly is a matter of safety.
And as a Moderator, you should you not be setting the standards for such things?


As to why these things are, I’m uncertain. Though these patterns, & comments, are at best, distasteful to me: To put it mildly. And it's demonstration in this thread, along with your bitterness directed at me, has me about ready to leave the forums, entirely.

To borrow the wise words of a friend. In the future; with regards to what you post:
“Think twice, type once”.
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Old 19-05-2016, 19:37   #57
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Re: Do I really need a barometer? Which one?

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Can a boro reading every few hours detect short squalls in the tropics or are we talking only larger storms systems?

Maybe the larger question is: I have a graph, now what? What patterns am I looking for and what will (and what won't) be detected?
This is the real question we should be asking ourselves. I find the baro an imprecise but still useful tool. For ne its value is more for tracking the larger systems progress as they move and change, and comparing the forcast values to my real values, if they diverge significantly I know the forcast is likely to be wrong.

It can show the squalls as they cross, but by that time its often far too late. The cloud patterns and radar seem to work best for spotting squalls in advance, but then I haven't sailed much in the tropics.

In the higher latitudes the barometer is a good tool, though modern forcasts are generally more accurate and precise. Combine the two, and add the swell, and sky observations to this info and you have a pretty robust system.

Saying this I've had the barometer plumet to very low levels and not had much wind, due to a low sliding to the north of us in the southern ocean. I have also had the barometer stay steady when all hell breaks loose due to being in a compression zone. But often as not it confirms what the forcast and my observations tell me about what's happening.

Nothing beats seeing the baro start to rise during a blow. You know its still going to blow hard for a while winds going to back if it hasnt already (s hemisphere), but there is light at the end of the tunnel. Hopefully its not a train...

20 odd years ago we got caught in a nasty mid tasman low. The weather faxes didn't show it. Nor was it forcast. I was first mate on a 100 foot brigantine headed from New Caledonia toward lord Howe Island. The wind quickly built to about 35 knots. At first we thought it was a shortlived squall, so we left the T'gallant in its gear instead of properly stowing it. Big mistake, over the next few hours the barometer dropped like a stone, the wind built and we had to send crew aloft to the topgallent to stow the sail in very nasty conditions. Scary and dangerous work, but justified by the barometer. The baro kept plummeting and the wind kept building. The next day the met guys had an intense new Low on the chart right over our position. A full twelve hours after we first noticed it with our old aneroid Barometer. We were an observing ship so they had our data every 6 hours. Without that barometer we might have held off on stowing the TG until it was even more dangerous.

The wind built to a good solid force 10. It did significant flooding damage to the ship as every seam opened up. The pumps failed due to blockages. Not much fun! Fortunately the barometer started to rise as quickly as it dropped and 12 hours later it was almost calm.

These days I think the forcasts may have caught it earlier, but the models still get caught out by rapidly developing lows even now.

"Soundly sleeps the careless ass, with a low and falling glass" never a truer word!

A baro can also sniff out a prefrontal trough or a lee low as they develop. Both these are hard to model and predict.
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Old 19-05-2016, 20:00   #58
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Re: Do I really need a barometer? Which one?

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Am I some curmudgeon, practicing outdated, arcane traditions with little value? Or a man with some valuable wisdoms to offer?
Uncivilized, this seems to be the quandry many of us"old timers" face. As technology and new attitudes and approaches march in are our old hard won experiences still relevant? I often struggle with this as well, sometimes I cast aside the old and embrace the new, other times I stubbornly cling to the my old ways.

I try to keep an open mind, and evaluate my ideas based on the modern reality rather than just traditional wisdom, Often I find the traditional approaches still have relevance, other times I have to sadly concede they are not really usefull any more.

Anyway I think your posts, even if sometimes slightly "old school" are very relevant, usefull and well written. They provide a very good counterpose to the "new school" that often hasn't even realised there is an "old school".

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Old 19-05-2016, 21:31   #59
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Re: Do I really need a barometer? Which one?

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There's a lot of weather resources available from Vancouver to Cabo . I suspect if you are asking if you really need a barometer then you wouldn't be overly skilled with using one already. You can surely go without one. If you want one then I'd recommend one of the digital recording ones, such as the Nasa unit below
After reading the thread to this point, I'll just refer back to Paul's post.

For me, it's not so much just having a barometer as a show piece (although mine is a bakelite unit from WWII) but how one is read. Sure 30.1 inches of mercury...so what. What is more important and I have not heard it mentioned yet, is the rate the barometer drops. That's when s#!t hits the fan.
Thinking about it, I can see where the electronic recording unit would be a lot of help. Don't expect me to give up my paper charts though...
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Old 19-05-2016, 23:53   #60
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Re: Do I really need a barometer? Which one?

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Dockhead,
I have a question, based on your comments in response to my postings in this thread (& others).
Which is it: Am I some curmudgeon, practicing outdated, arcane traditions with little value? Or a man with some valuable wisdoms to offer?
That's what's called a "false dichotomy". Like: "Do you beat your wife every single day? Or do you prefer to strangle her? Which is it?"

OK, more seriously. I shouldn't be joking because you obviously don't appreciate my brand of humor. You asked a question, and with apologies to everyone else on here, who will find all this pretty dull I guess, I will give you a complete and sincere answer --

What difference does it make, and how is it relevant to the long rant which follows? Of course you have tons of valuable knowledge, which I read eagerly. You are one of maybe 15 or 20 people on here whose stuff I always read, no matter on what topic. That does not in itself exclude your being a curmudgeon, or practicing voodoo. But that would not be my personal opinion. I have always agreed with most of the ideas about good seamanship you've expressed on this forum.

What concerns navigation, for example, I have always believed that electronics (however much I love 'em) are no substitute for knowledge of the art, and I carry and use paper, do chartwork, and I have a pretty strong opinion that an IPad is not an adequate navigation system by itself. That's something I learned in the '70's (not about the IPad obviously ) and have never deviated from. The principles of navigation can't even be separated from seafaring, in my opinion.

Concerning weather -- I don't have strong opinions, because unlike in navigation, which I know, I think, on a professional level, I am not strong in this field (and definitely not strong enough). I do watch the barograph and stay pretty closely aware of pressure trends, and have some basic understanding of other basic weather principles, but that's it, and I'm well aware that this is not enough.

But I do know enough to agree that being aware of pressure trends is important, and I liked one of your posts on good procedure for this, and said so. I liked how it was written and liked the examples you gave for why it's important, which is why I responded to it.

What I didn't know until now, and said so quite openly, was the extent to which people still log baro readings by hand. I really thought no one did that any more, and in this thread, I found out I was wrong. Learn something every day. I do still disagree that hand logging is really essential, if you have a barograph and know how to use it, even if I respect people who take the trouble to do it. That's because unlike dead reckoning, clearing bearings, and three point fixes, logging baro readings is something you can easily just start doing, if your barograph breaks -- it doesn't require any skill. This is different from navigation, where you are SOL if the electronics go down and you don't have a clue about how to actually navigate. But I have no strong opinion on this and would never call someone a curmudgeon for disagreeing with me.

As to your being a "man with valuable wisdoms to offer" -- well, you asked. Yes, of course you are. You have deep and, even more important, different experiences to most of us, and have contributed a great deal on different topics. Since you are asking for my honest opinion, however, I will say that I think you are far, far too sensitive to what others think about what you write, and in general you just take yourself far too seriously (and you clearly don't hear what it sounds like to other people, calling yourself a "man with valuable wisdoms to offer"). This has a good side to it -- it means you never post crap about stuff you don't know anything about (unlike most of us, including myself sometimes, I admit), and I really respect that -- it's one reason why I read all your posts. But it also means that you don't feel or "get" the give and take, and friendly banter, which is the normal mode on here. You are chronically unaware, when people are not being completely serious, especially me, and in my case, you totally misjudge the tone.



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Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
For in this thread, you’ve switched your position multiple times, regarding my & others comments herein. And when doing so, you have shown little restraint in belittling other posters, & myself. Both openly, & underhandedly; via sarcasm, & other means.

No, I have not switched any positions whatsoever in this thread. Not that there would be anything wrong with switching positions -- it's great to find errors in your thinking and correct them. I was unaware that people actually log baro readings anymore in their paper logs, then became aware of it when several people piped up about it, which was interesting to me. That's it.

As to "belittling" anyone -- I never belittled anyone, and in general never do, as a principle. I kidded one poster good-naturedly about his bombastic proclamation that you're not a "real sailor" unless you do x or y, which I think was taken in the right spirit. I'm sure he didn't mean it to sound as bombastic as it did, and I'm sure we were all laughing together about it.

I did correct your grammar in one spot, but -- sorry, I just can't help myself sometimes. I'm sure you would jump in and correct someone quickly, if he wrote "start your three point fix by sighting the HBC under your raised left leg at your own mast", wouldn't you? Well, in my opinion, language is not less important than navigation -- it's something which should be taken seriously, and is something which is worth some effort. So if you're going to give curmudgeonliness, then you ought, I think, to be prepared to take it, no? Not that I think either of us is really a curmudgeon on any of these issues, and certainly no "belittling" was intended, just like you would not have been "belittling" someone by pointing out that that is not, indeed, how to use a HBC.

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Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Coupled with that. To my recollection, I've shown no gaps in my credibility, veracity, or knowledge, since joining these forums. Rather, quite the opposite. And yet, you commonly, publicly dismiss or snub my commentaries, & freely shared wisdoms. Ditto regarding the posts of other members.
Including scrutinizing my posts in this thread, all the way down to the grammar level.

First of all. Every last man Adam among us has "gaps in his knowledge". There is not a man alive who does not. You should get over yourself, a little -- you would be happier.

A forum is not a university, where there are professors, on the one hand, and students, on the other. You are very knowledgeable, much more than most, much more than me on many topics, but no one appointed you professor, just like no one appointed me or anyone else professor. We all have some kind of knowledge to share, and we all have plenty of gaps, and we're all here to learn as much as anything else, or should be. So relax -- you don't need to prove your "credibility, veracity, or knowledge". People will disagree with you sometimes, even people who are far less knowledgeable than you are. It's ok. That's how forums work. And there ARE gaps in your knowledge. That's ok, too -- there's not a single person on the planet without them.

As to "dismissing" or "snubbing your commentaries" -- I hardly ever even disagree with you, much less "snub" you -- so where do you get such an idea? You post on a narrow range of topics in which you have a lot of knowledge (unlike most of us, including me, and I sincerely respect that), and these are mostly areas where I have less knowledge than you do. If I do dare to disagree with you, on some rare occasion -- I can hardly even remember a case -- you need to get over that. That is normal conversation. If you think I've been rude to you -- which has never, ever been my intention, but with all of us, something might sometimes come out wrong -- report the post to the moderator team, which takes only one click. Rudeness is not allowed on here, and reporting a post will start a serious review of the post by the whole team, to see if there is a problem. If I really was rude, believe me, they will kick my azz, and delete the post, and I will apologize.


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Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
You make such comments, & adopt said positions, only to later switch to the polar opposing views & modes of thinking. As is easily, & readily seen in this thread.

Often one’s which I had earlier advocated, but that at the time, you denigrated vehemently & loudly; sans cause, or factual basis.
You clearly do not understand what I write.

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Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
And you’ve even, done as much, with regards to how you now rig your own boat. Following the same above patterns. A trend, which has transpired throughout many, many posts & a multiplicity of threads. Which, I might add, says some “interesting” things about your “character”, & behaviors.

I remember that case, now that you bring it up. You gave me a lot of advice about how to install new tracks for a blade jib I had made last year. I agonized for months about how to install them, as I could not find a way to install the backing plates which was not hideously expensive and involving ripping up the boat interior. Finally someone gave me a completely different idea, which was to skip the tracks altogether and use twings, which I did with excellent success. You were furious that you had gone to a lot of trouble to give me a lot of advice, which I did not then use.

I'm really sorry, but you should not be giving any advice at all, if it's so important to you that people follow it. I learned a lot from what you wrote, and thanked you for it, even though I ended up going another way. At no time did I ever "denigrate" anything you ever wrote on this (or any other) matter. If you take the trouble to give someone advice, do it with an open heart, and don't expect people to feel obligated to follow it. It is not an insult to you, if they don't, and you don't have any right to interpret it as an insult.



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Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
But most importantly, you’ve belittled members & downplayed their posts which advocated matters of common sense safety. Me included.
Positions which from the outset I strongly advocated, but you again stated as being insignificant.

Even going so far as to proclaim that a barometer has no place onboard a vessel. Which, IMO, truly is a matter of safety.
And as a Moderator, you should you not be setting the standards for such things?
First of all -- the fact that I am a moderator does not give my opinions any more weight than anyone else's. In case I'm wrong about something, which I'm sure occurs frequently, I have just as much right to be wrong as you do.

Secondly, I never once even disagreed with you on any matter of safety, except this tiny detail about what kind of barometers you need to carry, and I never said that "a barometer has no place on board a vessel." I have at least four on board my own vessel and agreed with everyone who said that it is important to be aware of baro pressure. What I said was that I don't see the point of barometers which don't record the readings. I have a right to that opinion. Even if I disagreed with you completely and thought there's no reason to care about baro pressure at all -- I would even have a right to that opinion, even if we both think it's pretty wrong. In every case, you have a right to a different opinion, and in this case, I certainly respect your opinion. It's quite ok to disagree. It is not ok to get all upset about it.



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As to why these things are, I’m uncertain. Though these patterns, & comments, are at best, distasteful to me: To put it mildly. And it's demonstration in this thread, along with your bitterness directed at me, has me about ready to leave the forums, entirely..
I'm sorry you feel like that. No one likes to hear something like that, but you have every right to like or dislike whoever you want on here. The "ignore" button is really useful feature, for people who irritate you. Maybe you should use it.

In any case, I'm not going to respond any more to this kind of personal thing in the public forum. We've been around the houses a couple of times already, and this is really the last time I'll do it in front of everyone. It's not interesting to the other members. If you want for me to irritate you less -- and that would please me, sincerely -- and you think it's worth spending time on, then I'm absolutely willing to talk off line to clear up any misunderstandings, and work it out. I'll even give you my phone number. If it's not worth it, just put me on ignore! It will be no great loss to you; I don't possess any unique knowledge you will suffer for missing. By the way -- that's true of absolutely every one of us, and life on forums is a whole lot happier, when you don't take yourself too seriously.

One more thing -- rather than publicly accusing me of violating the forum rules -- report posts which you think are violations. This takes only one click, and is a very useful and powerful function. And even if you're wrong about the existence of a violation, no one will think worse of you for doing so. On the contrary, it's a healthy and effective way to deal with any posts you think are a problem, and the site team is always grateful when someone brings something to their attention, which they might have missed.
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