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Old 12-03-2014, 20:55   #61
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Re: RawFaith: A Family Saga Documentary

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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
That I didn't know. EDIT: But they are profiting by it and just as responsible.
That is not even logical. I had a friend that did a documentary on the homeless living in the NY subways. Would that make him responsible for the homeless problem in NYC? If someone does a documentary on the Holocaust would they be just as responsible as Hitler.

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And to the other comment, all I say is this sunk boat IS an environmental hazard. Thanks for the petrochemicals, dude. Wish they fined em.
Here you may have a point. However, I'm not intimately familiar with all the details but did I see a post where someone said the boat had no engine? If that was the case then what quantity of petrochemicals were introduced into the environment?
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Old 12-03-2014, 21:26   #62
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Re: RawFaith: A Family Saga Documentary

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
That is not even logical. I had a friend that did a documentary on the homeless living in the NY subways. Would that make him responsible for the homeless problem in NYC? If someone does a documentary on the Holocaust would they be just as responsible as Hitler.
Since when is the subject of this documentary an innocent VICTIM instead of an INSTIGATOR?

Tada. I have implemented SaltyMonkeys Law of Reversing an IDIOCY.

EDIT: Was your friends name by chance Leni Riefenstahl?
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Old 12-03-2014, 21:35   #63
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Re: RawFaith: A Family Saga Documentary

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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Since when is the subject of this documentary an innocent VICTIM instead of an INSTIGATOR?

Tada. I have implemented SaltyMonkeys Law of Reversing an IDIOCY.
I'm sorry but now I cannot understand where you are getting these comments..

I said nothing that in any way implied that the subject of the documentary was an innocent victim.

I said that the maker of the documentary had nothing to do with the project or the boat and that as the maker of a documentary he would also not share any responsibility for what he documented.

Repeat, in the posts you are referencing I said nothing about the subject of the documentary. Please go back and read what was said.
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Old 12-03-2014, 21:58   #64
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Re: RawFaith: A Family Saga Documentary

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Please go back and read what was said.
One, my weaker case - you tried to compare the relationship between innocent subjects (victims of poverty; holocaust) and the filmmaker vs non-innocent subjects (these folks; hitler [mine]) and the filmmaker. And this is non-sequitur.

Two, my stronger case - you inferred that a documentarian is innocent, and just documents results impartially. However, history has shown that documentarians are far from innocent observers, cannot help but influence either the subjects actions or promote the subjects cause through their resulting propaganda, and profit by it.
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Old 13-03-2014, 11:02   #65
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Re: RawFaith: A Family Saga Documentary

The little I know of this project reminds me of Black Wave, the only sailing narrative I have chucked across a room in sheer exasperation.

Faith, in my experience, is neither a substitute for seamanship, nor an excuse for its absence.
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Old 13-03-2014, 13:11   #66
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Re: RawFaith: A Family Saga Documentary

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
That is not even logical. I had a friend that did a documentary on the homeless living in the NY subways. Would that make him responsible for the homeless problem in NYC? If someone does a documentary on the Holocaust would they be just as responsible as Hitler.

Tada. I have implemented Godwin's Law.




Here you may have a point. However, I'm not intimately familiar with all the details but did I see a post where someone said the boat had no engine? If that was the case then what quantity of petrochemicals were introduced into the environment?
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I'm sorry but now I cannot understand where you are getting these comments..

I said nothing that in any way implied that the subject of the documentary was an innocent victim.

I said that the maker of the documentary had nothing to do with the project or the boat and that as the maker of a documentary he would also not share any responsibility for what he documented.

Repeat, in the posts you are referencing I said nothing about the subject of the documentary. Please go back and read what was said.
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Old 13-03-2014, 13:49   #67
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Re: RawFaith: A Family Saga Documentary

Look a documentary about ME!!!

95 Minutes
HD VIDEO DOWNLOAD: $12.99
VIMEO RENTAL: $2.99

Please write checks to Cash, Inc.

DVD at www.fuverymuch.com



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Old 14-03-2014, 06:10   #68
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Re: RawFaith: A Family Saga Documentary

In response to the person who recommended ice blink, by the same producer, I've purchased it and watched it tonight. Quite boring. It's perhaps 70% or more of talking and interviewing. I wish I could have rented it, but alas not available in Australia.
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Old 28-07-2014, 21:35   #69
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Re: RawFaith: A Family Saga Documentary

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OK, since we're going there...

With all due respect to the hard work and artistic talent that I'm sure went into making that film, the opinion I tried to soft-pedal in my original post stands:

Idiots are not heros and we should not, as a society, be treating them as such, or encouraging that sort of behavior.

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, and I'm sure everyone involved in the original project and the making of the film had their hearts in the right place. And for all I know the film is a gripping story that I may very well enjoy. Still, the above paragraph stands. It's not intended as derogatory toward anyone involved in making the film, it's a comment on the kind of "story" our society appears to want.

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Old 29-07-2014, 00:36   #70
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Re: RawFaith: A Family Saga Documentary

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Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy View Post
The little I know of this project reminds me of Black Wave, the only sailing narrative I have chucked across a room in sheer exasperation.

Faith, in my experience, is neither a substitute for seamanship, nor an excuse for its absence.
I haven't read the book 'Black Wave', but just watched the documentary which I thought was good. Is the book worth a buy?
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Old 29-07-2014, 00:44   #71
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Re: RawFaith: A Family Saga Documentary

I enjoyed it, it was a bit of a tragic story, and honestly shows how the family dream can go wrong.
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Old 30-07-2014, 03:38   #72
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Re: RawFaith: A Family Saga Documentary

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I enjoyed it, it was a bit of a tragic story, and honestly shows how the family dream can go wrong.
Thanks. On your recommendation I've ordered a copy, cost me a whole $6 from the US. So if it's a dud I'll be blaming you.
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Old 30-07-2014, 07:02   #73
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Re: RawFaith: A Family Saga Documentary

I haven't seen the documentary but am more familiar with this whole fiasco than I'd prefer to be so will attempt to answer a few questions that have been raised on this thread.

The original reason for the disabled theme was that McKays daughter was disabled so for the family to move aboard, they would need to have a disabled accessible boat. But the design they chose was no more disabled accessible than many of the seaworthy, properly crewed and captained schooners that regularly take tourists (including disabled ones) sailing out of Camden and Rockland, Maine. For example, to go below required negotiating a steep ladder and all facilities were extremely primitive....disabled accessible? Gradually, the project evolved from making it disabled accessible to accommodate the daughter to accommodating other disabled people, supposedly to allow them to have the same sailing opportunities that other people have. But, as I mentioned before, that opportunity already exists, and the boats are beautiful and are captained by qualified and experienced crew, where Raw Faith was very rough, amateur carpentry(I'm being generous...) and it's "captain" had absolutely NO sailing experience or credentials until shortly before its ultimate demise, McKay used his "sea time" anchored in Rockland Harbor to get a USCG license. Even McKays disabled daughter announced that she had no plans to live or even sail aboard this boat. McKay used the "making sailing on a tall ship available to the disabled" theme to attempt to get donations from church groups when he ran out of money, since he had quit his job. Many of the schooner captains in the Rockland/Camden fleet offered constructive suggestions to McKay in order to make his boat at least minimally seaworthy, but he dismissed their suggestions and became very defensive and offended that anyone would dare question his wisdom. After all, he'd read a book about how to build a boat like this and it was HIS project and he was very smart and he was the "Captain" of Raw Faith even though at that point he had no license and no sailing experience beyond having mostly towed Raw Faith approximately 100 miles from Cherryfield to Rockland. He had the same attitude whenever the USCG had to come out to rescue him and tow him back. He insisted, in an engineless hulk (I refuse to call it a boat or ship or yacht or.....well anything but an engineless hulk), even after losing steering and having his masts break off in a storm, after USCG personnel had put themselves in danger to save him and his hulk, that they needn't have bothered because they were OK on their own. McKay had so little clue and such a big ego that I think he actually didn't understand the danger, or understand how unusual it was to have to be rescued and towed back to harbor virtually every time he attempted to go to sea for any distance.

His boat had no engine and almost no ability to go to weather, yet he was attempting to sail south along the east coast in late fall, and he didn't see any problem with that.

His "crew" was even less knowledgeable than he was. My nephew, just out of high school and at the "trying to find a direction" stage, was taken in by McKays line of BS when McKay needed crew to replace his sons who were gradually coming to their senses and leaving, so this was when I became very interested in him out of fear for my nephews life. My nephew lived aboard Raw Faith and did carpentry aboard, though he had barely touched a hammer or saw or screw driver prior to that time, and hasn't since. Fortunately, this was during one of those times when Raw Faith wasn't allowed to leave Rockland Harbor, and my nephew figured out what a foolish egomaniac McKay was so moved on to other pursuits (now married and doing very well in the US Navy!) before he had much of a chance to get hurt.

The southerners who became crew members came from a church during the time when McKay was pitching his "bringing sailing to the disabled" concept. They were sincere and capable men but also had NO sailing experience. They arrived from Louisiana (I think) and went directly aboard and right to sea, then got rescued just a few days later, a very short seagoing career! After they were rescued by the USCG, one of them contacted me and asked if I would join them in a future attempt. I felt sorry for them but replied that, though I have a USCG 50 ton masters rating and had sailed other boats in the places where they intended to sail Raw Faith, that in no way qualified me to sail something such as Raw Faith, and from what I knew about this particular "hulk" from my nephew and from talking to local schooner captains who had been aboard, I had absolutely NO interest in even stepping aboard "it" and advised them to go back to their homes before they got hurt, which they did.

I realize that nothing I have said has anything to do with the documentary that the OP is promoting, but others here asked questions and I hope I have answered some of them. Thankfully, Raw Faith sunk before anyone got seriously hurt, because it was only a matter of time.
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Old 30-07-2014, 07:11   #74
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Re: RawFaith: A Family Saga Documentary

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Originally Posted by jtsailjt View Post
I haven't seen the documentary but am more familiar with this whole fiasco than I'd prefer to be so will attempt to answer a few questions that have been raised on this thread.

The original reason for the disabled theme was that McKays daughter was disabled so for the family to move aboard, they would need to have a disabled accessible boat. But the design they chose was no more disabled accessible than many of the seaworthy, properly crewed and captained schooners that regularly take tourists (including disabled ones) sailing out of Camden and Rockland, Maine. For example, to go below required negotiating a steep ladder and all facilities were extremely primitive....disabled accessible? Gradually, the project evolved from making it disabled accessible to accommodate the daughter to accommodating other disabled people, supposedly to allow them to have the same sailing opportunities that other people have. But, as I mentioned before, that opportunity already exists, and the boats are beautiful and are captained by qualified and experienced crew, where Raw Faith was very rough, amateur carpentry(I'm being generous...) and it's "captain" had absolutely NO sailing experience or credentials until shortly before its ultimate demise, McKay used his "sea time" anchored in Rockland Harbor to get a USCG license. Even McKays disabled daughter announced that she had no plans to live or even sail aboard this boat. McKay used the "making sailing on a tall ship available to the disabled" theme to attempt to get donations from church groups when he ran out of money, since he had quit his job. Many of the schooner captains in the Rockland/Camden fleet offered constructive suggestions to McKay in order to make his boat at least minimally seaworthy, but he dismissed their suggestions and became very defensive and offended that anyone would dare question his wisdom. After all, he'd read a book about how to build a boat like this and it was HIS project and he was very smart and he was the "Captain" of Raw Faith even though at that point he had no license and no sailing experience beyond having mostly towed Raw Faith approximately 100 miles from Cherryfield to Rockland. He had the same attitude whenever the USCG had to come out to rescue him and tow him back. He insisted, in an engineless hulk (I refuse to call it a boat or ship or yacht or.....well anything but an engineless hulk), even after losing steering and having his masts break off in a storm, after USCG personnel had put themselves in danger to save him and his hulk, that they needn't have bothered because they were OK on their own. McKay had so little clue and such a big ego that I think he actually didn't understand the danger, or understand how unusual it was to have to be rescued and towed back to harbor virtually every time he attempted to go to sea for any distance.

His boat had no engine and almost no ability to go to weather, yet he was attempting to sail south along the east coast in late fall, and he didn't see any problem with that.

His "crew" was even less knowledgeable than he was. My nephew, just out of high school and at the "trying to find a direction" stage, was taken in by McKays line of BS when McKay needed crew to replace his sons who were gradually coming to their senses and leaving, so this was when I became very interested in him out of fear for my nephews life. My nephew lived aboard Raw Faith and did carpentry aboard, though he had barely touched a hammer or saw or screw driver prior to that time, and hasn't since. Fortunately, this was during one of those times when Raw Faith wasn't allowed to leave Rockland Harbor, and my nephew figured out what a foolish egomaniac McKay was so moved on to other pursuits (now married and doing very well in the US Navy!) before he had much of a chance to get hurt.

The southerners who became crew members came from a church during the time when McKay was pitching his "bringing sailing to the disabled" concept. They were sincere and capable men but also had NO sailing experience. They arrived from Louisiana (I think) and went directly aboard and right to sea, then got rescued just a few days later, a very short seagoing career! After they were rescued by the USCG, one of them contacted me and asked if I would join them in a future attempt. I felt sorry for them but replied that, though I have a USCG 50 ton masters rating and had sailed other boats in the places where they intended to sail Raw Faith, that in no way qualified me to sail something such as Raw Faith, and from what I knew about this particular "hulk" from my nephew and from talking to local schooner captains who had been aboard, I had absolutely NO interest in even stepping aboard "it" and advised them to go back to their homes before they got hurt, which they did.

I realize that nothing I have said has anything to do with the documentary that the OP is promoting, but others here asked questions and I hope I have answered some of them. Thankfully, Raw Faith sunk before anyone got seriously hurt, because it was only a matter of time.
Yeah, well that's pretty much the summary I got from the film too. It's still a good documentary.
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Old 30-07-2014, 09:10   #75
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Re: RawFaith: A Family Saga Documentary

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Originally Posted by jtsailjt View Post
I haven't seen the documentary but am more familiar with this whole fiasco than I'd prefer to be so will attempt to answer a few questions that have been raised on this thread.

The original reason for the disabled theme was that McKays daughter was disabled so for the family to move aboard, they would need to have a disabled accessible boat. But the design they chose was no more disabled accessible than many of the seaworthy, properly crewed and captained schooners that regularly take tourists (including disabled ones) sailing out of Camden and Rockland, Maine. For example, to go below required negotiating a steep ladder and all facilities were extremely primitive....disabled accessible? Gradually, the project evolved from making it disabled accessible to accommodate the daughter to accommodating other disabled people, supposedly to allow them to have the same sailing opportunities that other people have. But, as I mentioned before, that opportunity already exists, and the boats are beautiful and are captained by qualified and experienced crew, where Raw Faith was very rough, amateur carpentry(I'm being generous...) and it's "captain" had absolutely NO sailing experience or credentials until shortly before its ultimate demise, McKay used his "sea time" anchored in Rockland Harbor to get a USCG license. Even McKays disabled daughter announced that she had no plans to live or even sail aboard this boat. McKay used the "making sailing on a tall ship available to the disabled" theme to attempt to get donations from church groups when he ran out of money, since he had quit his job. Many of the schooner captains in the Rockland/Camden fleet offered constructive suggestions to McKay in order to make his boat at least minimally seaworthy, but he dismissed their suggestions and became very defensive and offended that anyone would dare question his wisdom. After all, he'd read a book about how to build a boat like this and it was HIS project and he was very smart and he was the "Captain" of Raw Faith even though at that point he had no license and no sailing experience beyond having mostly towed Raw Faith approximately 100 miles from Cherryfield to Rockland. He had the same attitude whenever the USCG had to come out to rescue him and tow him back. He insisted, in an engineless hulk (I refuse to call it a boat or ship or yacht or.....well anything but an engineless hulk), even after losing steering and having his masts break off in a storm, after USCG personnel had put themselves in danger to save him and his hulk, that they needn't have bothered because they were OK on their own. McKay had so little clue and such a big ego that I think he actually didn't understand the danger, or understand how unusual it was to have to be rescued and towed back to harbor virtually every time he attempted to go to sea for any distance.

His boat had no engine and almost no ability to go to weather, yet he was attempting to sail south along the east coast in late fall, and he didn't see any problem with that.

His "crew" was even less knowledgeable than he was. My nephew, just out of high school and at the "trying to find a direction" stage, was taken in by McKays line of BS when McKay needed crew to replace his sons who were gradually coming to their senses and leaving, so this was when I became very interested in him out of fear for my nephews life. My nephew lived aboard Raw Faith and did carpentry aboard, though he had barely touched a hammer or saw or screw driver prior to that time, and hasn't since. Fortunately, this was during one of those times when Raw Faith wasn't allowed to leave Rockland Harbor, and my nephew figured out what a foolish egomaniac McKay was so moved on to other pursuits (now married and doing very well in the US Navy!) before he had much of a chance to get hurt.

The southerners who became crew members came from a church during the time when McKay was pitching his "bringing sailing to the disabled" concept. They were sincere and capable men but also had NO sailing experience. They arrived from Louisiana (I think) and went directly aboard and right to sea, then got rescued just a few days later, a very short seagoing career! After they were rescued by the USCG, one of them contacted me and asked if I would join them in a future attempt. I felt sorry for them but replied that, though I have a USCG 50 ton masters rating and had sailed other boats in the places where they intended to sail Raw Faith, that in no way qualified me to sail something such as Raw Faith, and from what I knew about this particular "hulk" from my nephew and from talking to local schooner captains who had been aboard, I had absolutely NO interest in even stepping aboard "it" and advised them to go back to their homes before they got hurt, which they did.

I realize that nothing I have said has anything to do with the documentary that the OP is promoting, but others here asked questions and I hope I have answered some of them. Thankfully, Raw Faith sunk before anyone got seriously hurt, because it was only a matter of time.
Thank you for the explanation. The documentary left quite a bit out. I didn't realize that he was towed and rescued so many times- also left out of the documentary. The more I learn about this story, the more I think the documentary is amateurish.
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