Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 10-03-2014, 09:33   #76
Registered User
 
w32honu's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Boat: Custom Marples 40 FC
Posts: 432
Images: 2
Re: Engine-free Cruising

I could be wrong about this, but this is my perspective on engine free cruising……..

I think that cruising sailors and crew are all pretty much the same. But it is possible that the boats themselves (engine free and powered) create a different approach or philosophy. Two different boats acting as a tool to reach an end. One is a "voyaging boat" and the other is a "cruising boat." They are interchangeable in that a voyaging boat can "cruise." And a cruising boat can "voyage."

The "voyaging boat" is engine free, rugged, and strong. She is dirt simple in terms of systems. Perhaps a gravity feed water system and a basic DC electrical system with back up kero lamps. Thats pretty much it. She has a clean underbody. The emphasis is on sailing performance in all conditions, especially light air. Short of a catastrophic rig failure there is not much else to slow her down. She is essentially unstoppable.

The "cruising boat" is powered with an aux engine. She is big, powerful, and strong. She is comparatively complex in terms of her systems with all of the modern conveniences that we have all become accustomed to. She is highly efficient at keeping a schedule….. at least short term (fuel is limited). She is more prone to break down. This would be a major inconvenience, but need not stop her.

The crew are pretty much the same and seek the same goals. So figure a hypothetical sail of 1000 miles or roughly 10 days……….

The crew of the "voyaging boat" review the same wx data as all of the other crews. They determine a wx window of about 3 days. It is a relatively easy task to push off of the dock and short tack out of the harbor. The first order of business is to get as far off shore as possible within this window. With close to 300 miles of sea room the crew is off soundings and enjoying better wx. They settle into a watch keeping routine and lay down a fix every 24 hours or so. This boat is in her element. She is very efficient (tool) for the task at hand. Roughly 7 days later they arrive and heave to to wait for the right conditions to enter harbor. They exercise a lot of patience and caution at this point and it could take some time to get the opportunity to enter harbor…….

The crew of the "cruising boat" utilizes the same wx window. They motor out of the harbor with the main up. They have the option, but choose to stay closer to shore. The wx is not quite as good (more fog, and shallower water) but that is OK. It opens up the option to make a few stops on the way down. Options to see some points of interest perhaps. She is much more efficient at entering and exiting harbors and tight spots, especially in light air. With a cruising guide in hand she can keep to a short term schedule. And there is also the option for intra-coastal navigation. Navigation is much more of a challenge (ICW and entering/exiting multiple harbors) and the crew never really settles into a longer term watch keeping routine. They arrive at the destination having taken an entirely different route. The "cruising boat" with all systems operating is highly efficient for this approach.

So in a way the boats themselves have dictated different approaches to the same cruise. The crews have simply chosen different "tools" to get the job done…….

IMHO here is where we get into trouble. It is when the two different approaches or philosophies carry over into the domain of the other. Put a schedule on the "voyaging boat" and watch the frustration build. Fail the engine on the "cruising boat" and watch a planned itinerary fall to pieces.

If we can borrow/adopt/combine some of the good stuff from each philosophy …….then its all good. In the end we are all at the same destination raising the same glass toasting a job well done.

Before you pile on……. please remember this is all just an opinion and it is hypothetical.

Cheers!!!!!
__________________

__________________
w32honu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2014, 09:34   #77
Registered User
 
w32honu's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Boat: Custom Marples 40 FC
Posts: 432
Images: 2
Re: Engine-free Cruising

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer Six View Post
I've been reading As Long As It's Fun.

It raises questions.
What kind of questions??

I would like to read this book next.

Tx
__________________

__________________
w32honu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2014, 09:55   #78
Moderator
 
Hudson Force's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Lived aboard & cruised for 45 years,- now on a chair in my walk-in closet.
Boat: Morgan OI 413 1973 - Aythya
Posts: 7,894
Images: 1
Re: Engine-free Cruising

Quote:
Originally Posted by w32honu View Post
I could be wrong about this, but this is my perspective on engine free cruising……..

.........................Before you pile on……. please remember this is all just an opinion and it is hypothetical.

Cheers!!!!!
You can't be wrong when you speculate with an imagined scenario.
I would imagine more of a continuum of variety among the crusiers instead of your vision of a dichotomy, but I'm just imagining so I can't be wrong either! Cheers back to you!
__________________
Take care and joy, Aythya crew
Hudson Force is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2014, 10:29   #79
Registered User
 
w32honu's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Boat: Custom Marples 40 FC
Posts: 432
Images: 2
Re: Engine-free Cruising

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptForce View Post
You can't be wrong when you speculate with an imagined scenario.
I would imagine more of a continuum of variety among the crusiers instead of your vision of a dichotomy, but I'm just imagining so I can't be wrong either! Cheers back to you!
I agree with you on the variety of cruisers……..

But too much space, time, and effort to try and describe multiple boats…..

__________________
w32honu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2014, 13:42   #80
Registered User
 
TeddyDiver's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arctic Ocean
Boat: Under construction 35' ketch
Posts: 1,828
Images: 2
Re: Engine-free Cruising

Just to note that boomles gaff sail with brails is the quickest..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lin Pardey View Post
The quickest-to-set mainsail is the leg-o’-mutton (jibheaded ) mainsail, which is set on an external mast track with claw-type slides.
__________________
TeddyDiver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2014, 15:53   #81
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,441
Re: Engine-free Cruising

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
If you were an American, you would realize that this is not odd. It's "manifest destiny". The rest of the Americas just THINK they are free and independent countries. Really they are ours or soon to be ours. We've always believed the new world belongs to us-all of it!
Thanks for spelling that out, Min !

As a slightly more distant denizen of the New World, I, for one, welcome our new overlords and wish them no harm !

(Note to self: send away for the course "Mercan in 6 weeks, for speakers of English")
__________________
Andrew Troup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2014, 16:20   #82
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 6,713
Re: Engine-free Cruising

> Mercan in 6 weeks

I much prefer Merkin!
__________________
StuM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2014, 16:20   #83
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,199
Images: 52
Re: Engine-free Cruising

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
Thanks for spelling that out, Min !

As a slightly more distant denizen of the New World, I, for one, welcome our new overlords and wish them no harm !

(Note to self: send away for the course "Mercan in 6 weeks, for speakers of English")


That is always the right answer, when greeting new overlords!


Not sure we want you Kiwis though, you guys are barmey.

Did you see this Top Gear clip I posted the other day?






The whole episode is, as usual, hilarious. Made me think of you guys down there. Sure looks beautiful!
__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,

Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2014, 22:42   #84
Registered User
 
markpierce's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Central California
Boat: M/V Carquinez Coot
Posts: 3,415
Re: Engine-free Cruising

I hate it when beautiful sailboats (particularly schooners and "tall ships") aren't under sail power. It takes away from my enjoyment.



__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2014, 10:20   #85
Registered User
 
boat_alexandra's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: chesapeake bay
Boat: bristol 27
Posts: 2,807
Re: Engine-free Cruising

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
How do you scull your boat? Details please. Even though yours is a fraction of our displacement (~7,000# vs our $28,000) they are similar in design concept. So too with your anchor techniques for navigating up current through a tight pass, although why you would not wait for the tide to change is unclear ... patience is the greatest ally of the sailor, after all.
I am using only pieces of wood found in a dumpster in sausalito, so that is why it is not ideal, but close. I have a 6.5' by 6-8" wide piece of 3/4" ply which is cut so that the top side is flat and the bottom rounded. This is bolted to a hardwood 2x4 (slightly smaller than 2x4 I believe) with two half inch bolts about 8 inches apart. This piece is 7ft long or so. I have screwed to this a small "box" made of wood screwed together. This box has 5 sides and sits on top of a trailer hitch which is bolted to the corner of the toe rail through the deck. Next the critical part, a 1inch stainless pipe is attached to the end of the hardwood shaft, it is about 3ft long, and is at a 15 degree angle. from here, there is a rope attached which goes directly down to an attachment point in the cockpit. It is possible to scull by pushing and pulling only, and no wrist (or even elbow) muscles are needed. It is also possible to quickly turn the boat left or right by varying the timing of the stroke. The oar and shaft is sticking into the water at about a 45 degree angle. I can fold mine up and store it inside on passages if I like.

I don't think you will be able to scull as fast or accelerate quickly on a larger boat (maybe with two people) but it should still be possible to get on and off docks and maneuver during calms if your oar is very efficient. I would suggest a larger dimensions, the oar needs to be more than half the length of the boat, so probably 8-9ft plywood, 8 inches wide, and 8-9ft shaft. I had to adjust the attachment point where the pivot goes. A trailer hitch is convenient but not ideal, but you do need rotation on all 3 axes. An oar lock would probably be slightly better. If you do build one, let us know about it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
Well since the soap box is available...let's look at your fossil fueled boat. The F/G hull, it's dacron sails. The tupperware you have onboard. Those clothes you wear mad in the sweat shop in China from 7 year old slave labor. You see...we can go on and on. When we view others we look through the binoculars. But when we look at own own part in the scheme of things, immediately we turn the binoculars around and view ourselves from the wrong end where everything appears tiny.
I really like your analogy but unfortunately you are making the false assumption that I have tupperware. As we all know, the most environmentally friendly hull is possibly fiberglass because there are thousands of unused ones being destroyed all the time. This is due to the contrived world we live in. My boat is 41 years old, and would have been crushed in san francisco if I had not saved it.

Cutting trees to make one of wood while renewable is worse for the environment in the current situation. My sails although dacron are salvaged from sunken vessels, and dumpsters. As for my clothes, most of the time I do not wear clothes, certainly not when on passages, but for towns, yes I do have two shorts and 3 tee shirts. They are secondhand and while 100% cotton, I have no doubt that slave labor was used in their production.

While both of us are being critical of the other, the difference is I am offering real solutions with explanations that anyone can employ. Because I am causing a minimal amount of pollution (open to suggestions to improve this) is not a valid excuse for others to cause excessive unnecessary amounts, especially when they are given detailed instructions on how to simply fix this.

A lot of people are getting defensive of their oil-addicted lifestyles. There is no need, instead you could focus this energy on improving it. Few can reach perfection but it is ridiculous to continue the same path if you can improve it.
__________________
boat_alexandra is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2014, 12:00   #86
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Boat: Yankee 30
Posts: 1
Re: Engine-free Cruising

Quote:
Originally Posted by boat_alexandra View Post
I am using only pieces of wood found in a dumpster in sausalito, so that is why it is not ideal, but close. I have a 6.5' by 6-8" wide piece of 3/4" ply which is cut so that the top side is flat and the bottom rounded. This is bolted to a hardwood 2x4 (slightly smaller than 2x4 I believe) with two half inch bolts about 8 inches apart. This piece is 7ft long or so. I have screwed to this a small "box" made of wood screwed together. This box has 5 sides and sits on top of a trailer hitch which is bolted to the corner of the toe rail through the deck. Next the critical part, a 1inch stainless pipe is attached to the end of the hardwood shaft, it is about 3ft long, and is at a 15 degree angle. from here, there is a rope attached which goes directly down to an attachment point in the cockpit.
Your description of your oar prompted this long-time lurker to pipe up! I built a prototype yuloh which has worked quite well in its limited use despite being quite rough around the edges. It's constructed similarly to yours, though if I'm reading your description correctly, yours is a bit shorter - mine has a 6ft blade and 12ft of loom (handle), 6ft of which extends into the cockpit above the pivot. I took pictures a while back and posted them on flickr here: Yuloh Pictures. It propelled me around and out of Moss Landing, CA, USA a number of times, and into my current slip in Santa Cruz, CA, USA. The prototype's weak point was the badly attached pivot - it needs to be very securely attached to the deck/hull, as it experiences significant cyclical forces. I'm planning to build a much nicer copy shortly - I've designed it already, but I'm working on building my new rig first. It will separate into three sections for easier stowage. The prototype and finished version are constructed mostly to Bob Grove's guidelines here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boat_alexandra View Post
I don't think you will be able to scull as fast or accelerate quickly on a larger boat (maybe with two people) but it should still be possible to get on and off docks and maneuver during calms if your oar is very efficient.
My boat isn't too much bigger than yours, and I never accurately measured my speed while sculling, but I would guess I was moving my 8700lb boat between 1.5 to 2 knots with moderate to high effort into a light breeze. One benefit of my current setup that I'm going to maintain with the new design is the ability to twist the oar 90 degrees to at least one side while keeping it on the pivot pin, which effectively turns it into a large sweep. In this way it can be used to turn the boat in place while not making any way - very useful in tight harbors. An obvious downside as compared to an engine is no reversing capability - if this bothered me much, I suppose I could mount another oar on the bow, though that seems unnecessary to me. Another limitation that I didn't consider until I came hard up against it is that I can't use the oar unless I have 10+ feet of unobstructed space off my stern - if I'm backed up against a dock or another boat for whatever reason, I have to warp or push my way away before I can row or turn.

As far as going engineless, I ended up on that path in the first place due to the expense - both time and money - of maintaining an old gasoline inboard. That the other side effects - less fossil fuel use, less mechanical complexity, more exercise, more attention to wind, weather and tides required - appeal to me at this point in my life as well is a bonus. My sailing mentor, and the the previous owner of my boat, subscribed to the Pardeys' idea of maintaining one's sailing skill, boat readiness and situational awareness such that an engine failure would be an inconvenience rather than an emergency. For me, the benefits of taking the leap to not having any engine outweigh the downsides, such as more limited exploration opportunities and the occasional requirement to wait for conditions to change when I could probably power through with an engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenose View Post
Lin & Larry,

I just wanted say a quick thank you for taking the time to start this thread and for your years of inspirational and educational teachings. Without your books I may never have found the relationship with sailing that I so enjoy.

Cheers and Thanks,
Bill
Here here!
__________________
AJ Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2014, 15:11   #87
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,441
Re: Engine-free Cruising

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Jones View Post
........... My sailing mentor, and the the previous owner of my boat, subscribed to the Pardeys' idea of maintaining one's sailing skill, boat readiness and situational awareness such that an engine failure would be an inconvenience rather than an emergency. ......:
That's the nub of it, right there

at least, for me.
__________________
Andrew Troup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2014, 20:40   #88
Registered User
 
boat_alexandra's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: chesapeake bay
Boat: bristol 27
Posts: 2,807
Re: Engine-free Cruising

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Jones View Post
... if I'm reading your description correctly, yours is a bit shorter - mine has a 6ft blade and 12ft of loom (handle), 6ft of which extends into the cockpit above the pivot. I took pictures a while back and posted them on flickr here:

Thank you for the reply. Good point about the loom. I think mine is a bit short, but because my boat has low free board it can work. A higher or larger boat would certainly need a longer one. The trailer hitch is very secure, the only thing that occasionally breaks was the pvc endcap before I switched to the box.

After looking at your pictures.. instead of using the 15 degree angle you used a 90 degree angle. This can work too of course, just needs to be adjusted to have the proper length. Perhaps this system is better because it is easier to adjust. My handle adds 3 feet to the loom though, so my loom is close to 10ft which is much closer to yours. My handle is much lower so I can operate when sitting or standing. I'll try to take some pictures...

It should be possible to scull backwards if the pivot prevents the oar from lifting off. My trailer hitch does not. This may also require a solid beam instead of a rope, or be more difficult to operate than forward movement.

I once nearly hit a reef (dropped anchor before hitting but boat still swung to where it was bumping the reef) and as I was attempting to scull off, the oar kept hitting the reef!! I had to work hard to keep the oar shallow (line was slack) and after a few strokes got the boat on the right tack and could sail upwind to deep water. So yes the sculling oar can get in the way, if you had also normal oars on each side it could possibly give more options.


My next boat is going to have a pedal drive train. This can be extremely efficient (fastest human powered boat reached 18 knots!) The same pedal system can also be used to raise anchor, raise sails, or any other winch function using various clutches. Can also be used for washing machine and pedal powered chain/circular saw and various tools (lathe drillpress etc) and generating electricity.

The same drive system can also have various inputs besides pedal power including wind generator, propeller (under sail or anchored in current), backfeeding power into the system when jibing, and electric motors. If built correctly for example would allow sailing straight into the wind using the wind generator to power the propeller, and while very slow (unless the wind generator is huge) could be sized to allow enough power to give maneuverability in any situation.gl
__________________

__________________
boat_alexandra is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cruising, engine

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Generator off the Main Engine Possible? Honey Ryder Engines and Propulsion Systems 35 29-10-2013 12:24
Battery Bank Size? Falshator Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 59 07-09-2013 16:19
The Right Way to Run a Diesel off-the-grid Engines and Propulsion Systems 80 09-12-2012 19:06
Which Engine? Charlie Engines and Propulsion Systems 30 11-11-2012 07:51
The Real Lifonomics of Sailing / Cruising drew.ward Boat Ownership & Making a Living 35 23-08-2012 23:08



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:36.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.