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Old 03-08-2019, 01:02   #1
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Double sided panels - pre order 50% discount

Finally, the first semi-flexible double-sided panels in the world have arrived!




Pre-order ONLY at an extraordinary price! 1.60 euro per W !!
115W 184.00 euros + VAT
130W 208.00 euros + VAT
147W 235.00 euros + VAT





2Face solar semi-flexible panel page



G-Wire technology info page



Price valid only on pre-orders from 01.08 to 31.08, delivery starting from 20.08 in chronological order. info an pre-orders at amministrazione@giocosolutions.com
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Old 03-08-2019, 03:52   #2
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Re: Double sided panels - pre order 50% discount

What would be the advantage of a double sided solar panel? Capturing reflected light from the underside adding efficiency?

Please explain...
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Old 03-08-2019, 05:54   #3
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Re: Double sided panels - pre order 50% discount

The panel is designed to try to get to the maximum producible on a face, technically the second face is a compensating face, so if a face is in the sun and produces 60% of the peak power, the other face to the 'shadow' absorbs the scattered light ensuring a compensation by increasing the output of the panel. If the boat rotates the rear face will become the predominant one and the front face will be the one to compensate. Without having to orient the panels or without losing performance depending on the orientation of the sun.

So in this perspective, the installation on the lifelines of sailing boats, for example, is one of the possible installations. Placed vertically while navigating, they produce the boat in any direction, instead, when you're at anchor, it can be placed horizontally, allowing it to be produced for the direct sunlight or by the refraction of water (a transparent alveolar polycarbonate support kit is supplied in case of this installation).

Another solution is on arches installing them flat.

Obviously, we shouldn't forget, that even if the panel is installed like any other panel (for example horizontal on the bimini) thanks to the high efficiency of the cells and to the low-temperature coefficient it is surely more performant than any other traditional panel.
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Old 03-08-2019, 06:00   #4
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Re: Double sided panels - pre order 50% discount

I say this, because I've already been asked privately. Obviously the cost of the panel is based on a single face. That is, you pay for one face, but obviously you have two that produces.
So the double face is just a plus on a high quality panel itself.
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Old 04-08-2019, 08:53   #5
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Re: Double sided panels - pre order 50% discount

Are you able to compare/contrast the electricity produced and cost/W with the same sized single sided semi-flexible and rigid panels?



I read the two links and there was nothing that showed any hard numbers. The concept seems sound, and the manufacturing process looks interesting. Some hard numbers would be nice. Thanks for posting this.
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Old 04-08-2019, 10:42   #6
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Re: Double sided panels - pre order 50% discount

You should notice, however, that vertical installation on lifelines:


- is rather uncommon - due to very low efficiency of vertically mounted panels,
- will be limited in output as there are stanchions, lifelines and netting that will block the shaded side.


Also, in horizontal mount, the shaded side output will be limited by any mounting hardware - for you cannot mount a flexible panel, horizontally, without some form of rigid structure to keep it in place.



Otherwise a great effort and I will be very happy to test it for you in real ocean crossing conditions (vis-a-vis a generic rigid panel of the same Wattage). PM me, if you find this could be of benefit to your venture.


Good luck and best regards,
barnakiel
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Old 04-08-2019, 10:56   #7
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Re: Double sided panels - pre order 50% discount

I also think it is important to explain what is understood the quoted "23%" efficiency in the light of:


Semi-flexible photovoltaic panel FGSE 147L double-sided - GIOCO SOLUTIONS Srl


where one side efficiency is quoted at only 18,26 % (and 17,5% backside efficiency)



which is way below one side efficiency of 22,7% of a typical hq mono-sided panel, e.g:



https://us.sunpower.com/solar-resour...ial-dc-x22-370


In other words: for the sailing environment, some cruisers may be interested in actual total efficiency of the new flexible double sided panels vs. a same W panel rated at 22% or thereabout.


Do you have such tests available? Were they done by an independent testing institution? Can we look up the procedure?



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Old 04-08-2019, 23:00   #8
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Re: Double sided panels - pre order 50% discount

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
I also think it is important to explain what is understood the quoted "23%" efficiency in the light of:


Semi-flexible photovoltaic panel FGSE 147L double-sided - GIOCO SOLUTIONS Srl


where one side efficiency is quoted at only 18,26 % (and 17,5% backside efficiency)



which is way below one side efficiency of 22,7% of a typical hq mono-sided panel, e.g:



https://us.sunpower.com/solar-resour...ial-dc-x22-370


In other words: for the sailing environment, some cruisers may be interested in actual total efficiency of the new flexible double sided panels vs. a same W panel rated at 22% or thereabout.


Do you have such tests available? Were they done by an independent testing institution? Can we look up the procedure?



barnakiel

23% is the efficiency of the cells. The efficiency of the cell is always communicated (also Sunpower for example) and then at the discretion of the producer the efficiency of the panel is declared (which we declare and many others do not )
The efficiency of the panel takes into account also the non-productive parts, that is the edges with the eyelets, the part where the junction box is located, etc. Which are all non-producing surfaces that obviously lower the efficiency percentage. Because efficiency is nothing more than W / m2, the smaller the panel, the more the perimeter bands, the JB, etc affect the percentage calculation.

So as you will understand in a bigger panel the efficiency percentage will rise because the parts not producing on the total affectless, as well as putting the junction box on the back, removing all the upper band of non-producing plastic material.

As you can see in here, almost identical size our panel produce 5W more than the best semiflexible Sunpower panel
https://us.sunpower.com/sites/defaul...spec-sheet.pdf

In this datasheet, they don't declare the efficiency percentage of the panel, but obviously, it would be less than our panel. These Sunpower panels are made by the same cell as the one you reported but as you can see yourself having the front JB, small size, etc, the panel is % less efficient compared to the big ones.


But what you ask for is not efficiency but it is producibility that is very different. Efficiency is a static calculation, power divided by space, but how much that power then produces in terms of kWh per kWp is the interesting part.

Here you can find a comparative test on the field in limit condition on the Monte Rosa to 9460 ft
https://www.nrel.gov/pv/assets/pdfs/...1_grischke.pdf


Here on page 14-15 antoher coparative
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...59daY3nc35kokb


Some more info about the technology here:
https://www.meyerburger.com/user_upl...13b12cc727.pdf
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Old 04-08-2019, 23:10   #9
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Re: Double sided panels - pre order 50% discount

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
You should notice, however, that vertical installation on lifelines:


- is rather uncommon - due to very low efficiency of vertically mounted panels,
- will be limited in output as there are stanchions, lifelines and netting that will block the shaded side.


Also, in horizontal mount, the shaded side output will be limited by any mounting hardware - for you cannot mount a flexible panel, horizontally, without some form of rigid structure to keep it in place.



Otherwise a great effort and I will be very happy to test it for you in real ocean crossing conditions (vis-a-vis a generic rigid panel of the same Wattage). PM me, if you find this could be of benefit to your venture.


Good luck and best regards,
barnakiel

It's quite a mistake to think that vertically the panel produces less, produces less in the hours when the sun is perfectly perpendicular to the sun, more instead when the rays are not perpendicular. Obviously, the greater production would be protruding outside the lifeline to make use of the incident solar radiation and that given by the refraction of the sun on the water.

Here a winter test (November northern Italy) so certainly not in the best conditions of use, placed vertically (in this case with the short side down but in the case of installation on the lifeline the long side should go down but not nothing would change in terms of production.

I apologize for the quality of the video but it is one of the first videos made a year ago during testing (the panel you will see is panel 0, the first-ever produced), you will notice how a 115W produces very well and almost the same output on both sides. This video was suppose to be for an internal use only







About your proposal instead, I'll message you privatly, it is something that we are really keen to do!
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Old 05-08-2019, 07:30   #10
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Re: Double sided panels - pre order 50% discount

Dear Davide,
I am very interested in these 2face panels and I hope they will fit my purpose, because the 50% offer is very attractive.

I think I have narrowed down my focus for solar panel location to a new bimini type location or connected to the port and starboard railings, with both locations being adjustable.

Because these are bifacing, I would like to make a lightweight and stiff frame of aluminuim or carbon fiber tubing 1" dia approximately, and then lash the panel to the frame with 1/4" line. Does the panel have holes approximately 4" oc on all 4 sides, or can they be made, or is there some other suitable provision for lashing to a frame? IE perhaps a hole at the edge where the cells join each other. Is the panel edge strong enough and wide enough to do this?

For fastening the 1" frames I intend to make simple clamps of corian and SS bolts that clamp to the 1" frame (or gemini SS clamps), and to my 1" railings and my waltz backstay radar mount 1 1/4" diameter. The first setup will be experimental and flexible, using these parts, and adjusting angles etc.

The electrical connections will be brought back to the stern and made rather perminently with enough length for stern rail or backstay mounting, but easily removeable for storms and hurricane alerts.

If you could advise about the lashing it will be very helpful Thank you.
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Old 05-08-2019, 07:50   #11
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Re: Double sided panels - pre order 50% discount

Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYSolartech-GiocoSolutions View Post
Here a winter test (November northern Italy) so certainly not in the best conditions of use, placed vertically (in this case with the short side down but in the case of installation on the lifeline the long side should go down but not nothing would change in terms of production.

Actually a winter test done in northern Italy is almost optimal test conditions for a vertically mounted solar panel. Northern is not very precise, but given that the northern border of Italy is near 45 degrees N and the sun is approaching 20 degrees S (depends on beginning or end of November) the sun angle is about 65 degrees from vertical or 25 degrees above the horizon. A horizontally mounted solar panel in such conditions would only be producing 42% of available power while the vertical panel would be producing 90% of available power due to the differences in angle of incidence.
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Old 05-08-2019, 08:23   #12
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Re: Double sided panels - pre order 50% discount

Here was my first assessment for solar panel locations. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/....php?p=2938436

Since then I have focused on the stern because that is where less shade will be and bigger panels can be put. The dodger is too small I think for port and starboard panels. One good suggestion, was to use 24v polycrystaline (rigid) but heavier, with victron mppt 100/30 outputting 12vdc so that solar production starts earlier in the morning when it is needed. I notice these flex panels are about 15v, but higher amps. Would I need to use genasun boost controller for these panels with respect to earlier daily startup?

The carbon fiber 1" tubes I was looking at were part of the carbon connect series
but they were way to expensive
https://dragonplate.com/Modular-Carb...ube-Connectors

Is one system.
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Old 05-08-2019, 19:08   #13
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Re: Double sided panels - pre order 50% discount

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Dear Davide,
If you could advise about the lashing it will be very helpful Thank you.

The video shows good sized SS grommets for every two solar cells. I may be able to add a SS grommet in between, using a drill and the proper equipment.
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Old 06-08-2019, 01:11   #14
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Re: Double sided panels - pre order 50% discount

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Originally Posted by rgleason View Post
Dear Davide,
I am very interested in these 2face panels and I hope they will fit my purpose, because the 50% offer is very attractive.

I think I have narrowed down my focus for solar panel location to a new bimini type location or connected to the port and starboard railings, with both locations being adjustable.

Because these are bifacing, I would like to make a lightweight and stiff frame of aluminuim or carbon fiber tubing 1" dia approximately, and then lash the panel to the frame with 1/4" line. Does the panel have holes approximately 4" oc on all 4 sides, or can they be made, or is there some other suitable provision for lashing to a frame? IE perhaps a hole at the edge where the cells join each other. Is the panel edge strong enough and wide enough to do this?

For fastening the 1" frames I intend to make simple clamps of corian and SS bolts that clamp to the 1" frame (or gemini SS clamps), and to my 1" railings and my waltz backstay radar mount 1 1/4" diameter. The first setup will be experimental and flexible, using these parts, and adjusting angles etc.

The electrical connections will be brought back to the stern and made rather perminently with enough length for stern rail or backstay mounting, but easily removeable for storms and hurricane alerts.

If you could advise about the lashing it will be very helpful Thank you.

I'm sure the 2faces are the right solution for your needs. For eyelets, we can position them in quantities and positions at the discretion of your needs.

But, I am not sure that I have perfectly understood how you want to install them, if you can pls send us an email with an explanatory drawing of your project so that we can better follow you.
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Old 06-08-2019, 06:21   #15
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Re: Double sided panels - pre order 50% discount

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Originally Posted by FLYSolartech-GiocoSolutions View Post
I'm sure the 2faces are the right solution for your needs. For eyelets, we can position them in quantities and positions at the discretion of your needs.

But, I am not sure that I have perfectly understood how you want to install them, if you can pls send us an email with an explanatory drawing of your project so that we can better follow you.
What I am considering is a flexible bifacing solar panel, laced onto to a 1" diameter carbon fiber tubular frame with angles connectors (90 degree, rigid, with full moment connection) so the framed is rigid and does not twist or rack. The 2face panel would be carefully laced into the center of the frame with enough tension to prevent wind from vibrating the panel and causing cracks. This is done without a double wall polycarbonate backing panel to save on weight, cost and improve the efficiency of the 2nd face.

The boat has a short waterline length and overhanging stern, so keeping the weight in the stern low is important, yet that is the best place for effective solar and I do need some shade over the helm. So having lightweight flexible solar panels might be a very big help as the weight does start to add up.

These lightweight panels will be deployed using gemini bimini clamps, other types of clamps that I will devise and additional carbon tubes for flexible adjustment and support in two basic locations:
1. Over the steering wheel in the normal bimini position, on either side of the backstay and waltz backstay mounted radar pole.
2. Lifeline/Stern Railing attached on port and starboard and angled out in a range from horizontal to vertical.
3. Maybe on swing poles off the two stern corners.

3. All the mounting details are not completely worked out, but I intend to keep this flexible, until I know how I am going to use them best.
I need to find a good source for carbon tubes and elbow fittings.

The two Panels will be be stored in the cabin during storms and hurricane alerts. I am thinking of two 130w panels and maybe one other.

There is a sketch in Post #38 in the Solar Panels 32' Sloop thread.
There are some good lifeline mounted examples in Post #39 Flexible adjustible wings, Post #42 simple off the stern, Post #48 stern railing experiment, Post #56 a pdf of an earlier rigid solar panel idea on swing posts at the stern corners, supported by the stern railing, that could "fold" in towards the centerline, with one panel on top of the other, for greater security and storms, Post #60 Elzaar's bimini panels, Post #76 Elzaar details and some panel heat readings with double wall polycarbonate backing.

For these 2face panels I am thinking that it would be better to have a grommet at the edge in line with each cell joint, to prevent wind from shaking the panel too much. What do you think?


I will email more detailed sketches.
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