Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 17-05-2013, 19:21   #16
cruiser

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: North Charleston, SC
Boat: Camano Troll
Posts: 4,669
Re: Xantrex sw3000 installation questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
............. It would be intyeresting to learn if the unit has two different ways to wire it.
Read the second part of my post directly above yours.
__________________

__________________
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-05-2013, 19:34   #17
Registered User
 
Stu Jackson's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cowichan Bay, BC (Maple Bay Marina)
Posts: 6,385
Re: Xantrex sw3000 installation questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwidman View Post

As for this "transfer switch" problem, I don't know why someone wouldn't want to use that feature, but it seems to me that if you don't supply power to the input, the inverter will always supply power to the output circuit because it "thinks" the power has failed.
You mean this one? If so, wouldn't that be self defeating IF, I say IF, the output was wired into the house A.C. system? Wouldn't the inverter power output then have the chance of being ON at the same time as shorepower? Which would be the whole purpose of the transfer switch to begin with...

If that wasn't what you were referring to, please let us know.
__________________

__________________
Stu Jackson
Catalina 34 #224 (1986) C34IA Secretary
Cowichan Bay, BC, (Maple Bay Marina) SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)
Stu Jackson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-05-2013, 19:40   #18
cruiser

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: North Charleston, SC
Boat: Camano Troll
Posts: 4,669
Re: Xantrex sw3000 installation questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
You mean this one? If so, wouldn't that be self defeating IF, I say IF, the output was wired into the house A.C. system? Wouldn't the inverter power output then have the chance of being ON at the same time as shorepower? Which would be the whole purpose of the transfer switch to begin with...

If that wasn't what you were referring to, please let us know.
I had a hard time understanding the original post, but I took it to mean that he wanted to use a manual switch to select shore power, genset power, or inverter power. So the inverter is supplying 120 volts AC all the time but it's only connected to the boat's wiring when he throws the switch to the inverter position.
__________________
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-05-2013, 19:47   #19
Registered User
 
Stu Jackson's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cowichan Bay, BC (Maple Bay Marina)
Posts: 6,385
Re: Xantrex sw3000 installation questions

Gotcha, thanks, I had the same issue with the OP. Be interested in seeing what continues...
__________________
Stu Jackson
Catalina 34 #224 (1986) C34IA Secretary
Cowichan Bay, BC, (Maple Bay Marina) SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)
Stu Jackson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2013, 12:32   #20
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: May 2011
Location: PDX
Boat: Gulfstar 50
Posts: 893
Re: Xantrex sw3000 installation questions

I did not get a chance to get down to the boat yet so I'll go from memory and reference a PDF copy of the installation manual. This is a newer copy of the manual than was supplied with my inverter and appears to be more clear in describing the configuration. Also, I'll follow up with a second post after re-reading youur original posting to see if there are any hanging questions.

http://www.xantrex.com/documents/Inv...1_Rev-A%29.pdf

Sorry for being so long winded.


------------------------

You will want to use the “Dual Input” configuration for AC input.

Page 9 (23 of the PDF)
• Dual input: This source type has two line inputs, one neutral, and one ground. Unlike the split-phase type,
the two lines are in phase (not out of phase), and must come from the same source. The voltage between
the two lines is zero. The voltage between each line and the neutral is 120 VAC, and the voltage betw
een the neutral and ground is approximately zero. Because the two lines are in phase,
the currents from each line add together in the neutral. For example, if Line 1 is supplying 20A and
Line 2 is supplying 15A, the current in the neutral will be 35A.

Shore power would come into your boat and go to a dedicated dual 30 amp breaker. From the breaker it is then wired to the SW3000 AC inputs. Ground to ground, neutral to neutral and line to L1 and to L2. In other words both line inputs are fed from a single hot wire from shore power. Also, this is the only place that neutral connects up.

The internal transfer switch will feed through shore power to the inverter AC output terminals and also pass through the shore power neutral. When you lose shore power or select inverter mode the inverters transfer switch disconnects shore power from the inverters AC output terminals including neutral. The inverter will supply hot, neutral and ground and will connect its neutral to its ground thus providing a neutral to ground connection at the source. This is why you do not bond input neutral to output neutral. (see page 12, 26 of pdf)

For inverter AC output you would only use a single line (L1) to feed your ships AC panel. As shown on the table on page 26 (40 of the pdf) wire only L1 and N1 (leaving L2, N2) unused. And of course the safety ground (green wire). Wire these to your ships AC panel through a dual 30 amp breaker that feeds all the 15 Amp load breakers for routing to outlets.

This configuration gives you a choice of shore power or inverter power to all of you ships AC outlets. If you wanted a genset you would put a manual transfer switch on the shore power side of the inverter that wold allow you to select shore power or generator. During the transfer to generator the inverter would detect the interruption of input power and supply inverter power till the genset was able to take over. The net wffect wold be a seamless transfer.

I am assuming that you are OK with the DC side and have a (big ass) fuse and battery switch as well as large wires (2/0?). The key here for me is to be able to positively be sure that the inverter is off by isolating it from the shore power, genset power and DC battery power. I really wouuld not want the inverter to come on and fry me. Under no load conditions when in inverter mode the inverter will not supply AC. Thus if you measure the inverter output with a meter it will read low or no volts. But when you place a load on it it will supply full voltage. It can kill you if your body becomes that load.
__________________
evm1024 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2013, 12:55   #21
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: May 2011
Location: PDX
Boat: Gulfstar 50
Posts: 893
Re: Xantrex sw3000 installation questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickoneil View Post
As I see it the sw3000 requires 2 AC line inputs, either split phase or 2 lines coming from a panel. In a typical 30 amp shore power, you don't have split phase, just hot neutral and ground. My installation as designed, would have a Blue Sea three source rotary AC switch, selecting shore power, generator and the third AC source, sw3000 inverter/charger.
Per my prior post - you only need a single hot feeding both L1 and L2 AC inputs to the inverter. Also, if you have a generator you only need a 2 position AC switch to select between shore power and genset. The output from this switch feeds the inverter which has an internal transfer switch to select Line or inverter AC output. This gives uninterruptes transfers between Shore power, Genset Power and Inverter power.

Quote:
My research has shown that typical inverter installations in boats and RV's have the inverter AC outs feeding a dedicated inverter load panel. That's how it is in my Bounder Diesel Pusher RV, it passes thru the AC in to the AC outs. But the problem with that is you have a limited amount of AC outlets fed from the inverter AC outs (obviously there is a current limitation). The good thing in the internal transfer switch is supposed to transfer from input AC power to inverter AC service smoothly. I can see the design that RV's have but I'd like to hear from cruisers who have installed these units and how they were wired in.

It makes sense in some installations (such as RV) to have a "shore" panel feeding "shore" outlets and loads as well as an inverter panel feeding a different set of outlets. On a boat this is not necessary or desired. The snigle exception (at least on my boat) is to have an outlet that is fed from shore power for space heaters and other such large load that will run full time when on shore power. And that you do not want draining your batteries should you lose shore power (not to speak of the noise the inverter will make).

Quote:
One danger that should be mentioned is the possibility of back feed where a AC panel feeds an inverter that is currently feeding that AC panel. I want to have one AC panel, with 2 lines/breakers feeding the sw3000 inverter/charger, and use the 3-way AC source selection, choosing shore power, genset or inverter. I could wire up a second switch before the AC line ins of the inverter as an idiot check to avoid back feed, but is there another way to do this?
With the wiring as shown above and on the prior post there is no chance of a back feed. All power sources (shore and genset) feed into the inverter and the inverter output feeds the distribution panel. This counts on the inverters internal transfer switch selecting source (shoure or genset) power or inverter power to the distribution panel.

Quote:
Additionally, the sw3000 manual says that the AC input and AC output isolation should be maintained, for example, the neutrals from the AC in and AC outs should not be routed to common neutral bus. If the neutrals are eventually connected to ground and to each other, how can they be truly isolated?
The inverters transfer switch takes care of neutral isolation and ground bonding.

Quote:
This is my first post and I am currently in the "almost launched" phase of a refit of an 1978 Ericson 34T. I installed a Beta Marine Beta 28 with saildrive, no more shaft!

Rick O'Neil
Port Charlotte, Florida
Looking forward to hearing more about your experience with your ericson. I owned an E39 flush deck for many (14?) years. Nice sailing and fast.

Oh, one more thing. make sure that you wire in the inverter remore panel somewhere close to the area that makes most sense (the galley in my case). This will allow you to turn the inverter AC output on and off when needed. the inverter takes power when in idle and less when off. Also when cruising switch the DC to the inverter off which removes all DC power consumption that the inverter needs thus preserving your batteries even more.

Also, you might consider getting the SCP panel (system control panel) this allows you many controls on the inverter that are not available any other way. You can select the default mode for the inverter(in my case inverter output off even when removed from shore power), Set the battery type and capacity which allows better charging and a host of other settings and measurements.

regards!
__________________
evm1024 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2013, 21:33   #22
Registered User
 
rickoneil's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 8
Thanks for the excellent comments as well as the recommendation that I hire a pro. No thanks, I wired over 10 homes, 3 recording studios, 2 Internet data centers and a 40' RV. Oh, and this sailboat refit in progress. I didn't post to be told to hire a pro, I posted to see how others used the various installation options for the seemingly flexible SW3000 as described in their confusing docs.

I did call tech support and was told that the unit can be fed only thru the AC L1 in and get all 30 amp AC out from the L1 out. Seems to be different from their manual.

I think I'll go with the non traditional approach and have the 3 AC sources fed from the 3 position AC selector. Shorepower, genset and inverter.

Obviously no hot water heating from the inverter, but having Shorepower feed the inverter in then having the inverter feed the main AC panel as suggested, would make charging the 900 amp hour battery bank from the genset running the SW3000 charger, impossible. I have dual Balmar 100 amp alternators on the new Beta 28 saildrive as an engine driven charging system, but running the genset for charging will be the first choice.

I am hoping to run the air conditioning from the inverter power, this will be tested next week when we install the unit. Initial consultations with the AC vender are encouraging.

I'll keep you all posted, tomorrow I'm routing and installing all new Pacer Marine custom built battery cables for the large house bank, windlass, Engine bank, new power panels, buss bars, class T fusing, inverter, battery switches , etc....
__________________
rickoneil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2013, 22:01   #23
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Atlantic City, NJ
Boat: Beneteau 49
Posts: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickoneil View Post

I think I'll go with the non traditional approach and have the 3 AC sources fed from the 3 position AC selector. Shorepower, genset and inverter.

Obviously no hot water heating from the inverter, but having Shorepower feed the inverter in then having the inverter feed the main AC panel as suggested, would make charging the 900 amp hour battery bank from the genset running the SW3000 charger, impossible.
I am not sure why you think battery charging would be a problem. When the inverter is acting as the switch with the AC feed directly, the inverter will automatically switch over to battery charger when the AC is off. I installed the SW3000 about a month ago with the system control panel and it is working well. I feed it with just one AC input on L1. I also have a generator and it does not matter what the source of the AC is for the unit to go into charger mode. I separated the AC breakers I wanted on the inverter from the main AC source and am feeding hot and neutral from the inverter.
__________________
georgec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2013, 23:00   #24
Registered User
 
rickoneil's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by evm1024 View Post

Per my prior post - you only need a single hot feeding both L1 and L2 AC inputs to the inverter. Also, if you have a generator you only need a 2 position AC switch to select between shore power and genset. The output from this switch feeds the inverter which has an internal transfer switch to select Line or inverter AC output. This gives uninterruptes transfers between Shore power, Genset Power and Inverter power.

It makes sense in some installations (such as RV) to have a "shore" panel feeding "shore" outlets and loads as well as an inverter panel feeding a different set of outlets. On a boat this is not necessary or desired. The snigle exception (at least on my boat) is to have an outlet that is fed from shore power for space heaters and other such large load that will run full time when on shore power. And that you do not want draining your batteries should you lose shore power (not to speak of the noise the inverter will make).

With the wiring as shown above and on the prior post there is no chance of a back feed. All power sources (shore and genset) feed into the inverter and the inverter output feeds the distribution panel. This counts on the inverters internal transfer switch selecting source (shoure or genset) power or inverter power to the distribution panel.

The inverters transfer switch takes care of neutral isolation and ground bonding.

Looking forward to hearing more about your experience with your ericson. I owned an E39 flush deck for many (14?) years. Nice sailing and fast.

Oh, one more thing. make sure that you wire in the inverter remore panel somewhere close to the area that makes most sense (the galley in my case). This will allow you to turn the inverter AC output on and off when needed. the inverter takes power when in idle and less when off. Also when cruising switch the DC to the inverter off which removes all DC power consumption that the inverter needs thus preserving your batteries even more.

Also, you might consider getting the SCP panel (system control panel) this allows you many controls on the inverter that are not available any other way. You can select the default mode for the inverter(in my case inverter output off even when removed from shore power), Set the battery type and capacity which allows better charging and a host of other settings and measurements.

regards!
Thanks for the excellent response, I agree that the RV typical solution of feeding a separate AC panel just for inverter loads is not desirable on a boat, plus I don't have room on an Ericson 34 for multiple AC panels.

Your solution also solves the neutral issue!

Yes I got the SCP and yes it's going in the galley. Originally in the Ericson 34, the DC panel is in the galley area, I have changed this to the rather small nav station at the quarter berth, so I have space in that Galley panel area for SCP, fridge control, genset panel, propane monitor and solar/wind controller.

As for the Ericson info, I took a California 6' draft vessel and had Mars Metal design a split torpedo lead bulb to bolt and glass to the bottom of the cut keel, which was done while the boat was on the crane that removed it from the truck that moved it from Marina Del Rey to my waterfront house in Port Charlotte, FL. I cut the Keel with a chainsaw, from 6' to 4'6". Six foot draft boats don't work in these waters. We removed 500 pounds of lead and added 700 pounds via the torpedo bulbs, 18 inches higher.

Additionally, I removed a functioning Yanmar GM3 and replaced with a Beta 28 saildrive. That was quite the job, no more cutlass bearing, strut or stern tube. No more "drip less" shaft seal. No more water down there. Big job removing the old engine cradle and cleaning that area up. Then there was the hole in the hull that I could almost fit my head into. The NextGen 3500 watt Genset sits behind the Beta 28 in a sound enclosure.

I added a new US Spars boom, new rig, new North Sails 3DL main and Genoa. The main slides on Harken track that we installed up the mast which was painted with Snow White Perfection. The Harken traveler riser is in "cruiser" position in front of the companionway slider. I removed the stock traveler from aft of the companionway, it was right in the way every time someone wanted to go down below. Removed the track and filled in the evidence with epoxy and 410 filler.

Garhauer Marine has made new stanchion bases to match the originals, and I had them make me new stanchions as well, but made them 30" instead of the original 24". additionally they made me custom rope clutches with 6 line capacity, one for each side. The Garhauer deck hardware blocks, gleaming stainless steel, match the New Found Metals ports that make the boat not look like an Ericson anymore because I removed the trademark triangular one sided ports in favor of large opening gleaming stainless steel ports.

I'm tired just posting all this.... Gotta wake up early and continue the.refit......
__________________
rickoneil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2013, 23:04   #25
Registered User
 
rickoneil's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgec View Post

I am not sure why you think battery charging would be a problem. When the inverter is acting as the switch with the AC feed directly, the inverter will automatically switch over to battery charger when the AC is off. I installed the SW3000 about a month ago with the system control panel and it is working well. I feed it with just one AC input on L1. I also have a generator and it does not matter what the source of the AC is for the unit to go into charger mode. I separated the AC breakers I wanted on the inverter from the main AC source and am feeding hot and neutral from the inverter.
The way to do it, as suggested in a previous post, would be to have a AC selector, shore & genset, feed the inverter input, hense no problem.
__________________
rickoneil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2013, 23:19   #26
Registered User
 
rickoneil's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
If you don't understand how to install an inverter in a boat, you should leave this to a pro. Also, you should select an inverter that is compatible with your electrical system, not select an inverter and then try to find a way to make it fit your system.

By bringing in a pro before you purchase the equipment, you can save a lot of trouble and expense.

If you have some aversion to hiring a pro, you should take some courses in electricity and wiring until you learn what you need to know to do the installation yourself.
Not interested in a "pro" at this time. I do understand, I also understand that there are several ways to do it.

I don't need a "pro" to purchase equipment, I chose the correct inverter/charger for my boat and associated 900 amp/hour batter bank charging needs.

I have an entirely new AC and DC system, so i dont have to "find a way to make it fit my system".

I am merely asking the cruisers here how they did it to get insight on what guys are doing. I have an engineering degree and have wired multiple houses, 3 recording studios, 2 Internet data centers and a 40' RV.
__________________

__________________
rickoneil is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:31.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.