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Old 02-05-2013, 13:36   #46
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Re: Wiring Regulations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Context gents, context. You want to wire up your nav lights and radio with used zip cord, there's nothing to stop you.
There's nothing to stop you from doing the same type of thing in your home either. The NEC is not law, it's a recommended standard just like ABYC. It's use is typically mandated by state and local laws and inspections are required when a home is constructed but after that, the homeowner can and does do what they want. Same as when your boat is manufactured, they comply with federal regulations and ABYC standards and after that, the boatowner does what he wants. Iv'e been in this industry for a long time and find that most in the know about regulations, including ABYC, are totally unaware that subpart I of part 183 is specifically for gasoline engines. ABYC documentation states: "The United States Coast Guard has promulgated mandatory requirements for electrical systems in Title 33, CFR 183 Subpart I, Section 183. Refer to the CFR for current federal requirements. These standards apply: To direct current (DC) electrical systems on boats that operate at potentials of 50 volts or less and......." There is no mention of "gasoline engines".

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Old 02-05-2013, 13:57   #47
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Re: Wiring Regulations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
... MS brought up his low opinion of the ABYC spec for crimp pressure. I'm not 100% sure, but I wonder if he's possibly taken the number for pull resistance, for crimp pressure? ABYC does specify the minimum pulling force applied to a crimped connection that it should be able to withstand. I'll try to look it up later ...
I believe that pull-out resistance (force) is directly correspondent to crimp pressure.
The optimal crimp pressure forms an intimate, gas tight (cold welded) connection; where the connection produces the highest mechanical strength, with the highest electrical conductivity.

The main criterion by which to judge the quality of a crimp connection is the retention force achieved by the wire conductor in the terminal section of the contact. Basically, the wire should break, before it pulls out of the terminator.

There are numerous standards*, specifying the pull out force a connection should withstand, (Main Sail's point being that) the ABYC standard being ludicrously lower than any other.

*Ie:
DIN IEC 60 352, part 2
MIL-T-7928 ➥ http://www.crimptech.com.au/pull_testing.pdf
UL 486 A
SAE AS7928 (Pg. 32) http://bbs.dianyuan.com/bbs/u/33/1127390364.pdf
NASA-STD-8739A)
Crimp Size Chart Information

For instance, for #14 AWG
70# Mil - 70# DIN - 65# NASA - SAE 50# - 30# ABYC
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Old 02-05-2013, 14:03   #48
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Re: Wiring Regulations?

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Originally Posted by Ldylightfoot View Post
... I was wondering what the regs (if any) for boat wiring are? We need to run wires up the mast for our anchor light, and I need to check the nav lighting, since they're not working for some reason. I'm not worried about the doing of the work, as I'm an avionics technician and wiring boats can't be harder than wiring planes, I just want to be sure I'm doing it right ...
The OP may have asked for regulations, but (apparently, to me) was seeking advise on best practice, or industry standards.
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Old 02-05-2013, 14:13   #49
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Re: Wiring Regulations?

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Originally Posted by fairbank56 View Post
There's nothing to stop you from doing the same type of thing in your home either. The NEC is not law, it's a recommended standard just like ABYC. It's use is typically mandated by state and local laws and inspections are required when a home is constructed but after that, the homeowner can and does do what they want. ...........
Not legally in most cases. Most jurisdictions require a building permit and subsequent inspection for electrical work even if the home owner or his brother in law does the work.

Of course, many homeowners ignore these laws and do the work without a permit or inspection. The problem comes when there is a fire or other event that results in injury or death of someone.

In my city there was a major building fire a few years ago that resulted in the death of nine fire fighters. Even though it came out that the fire department's training and procedures were inadequate, it also came out that there had been some non-code, uninspected work on the building. The building's owners were sued by the fire fighter's families and the company that owned the building lost and eventually was forced out of business.

Also, some jurisdictions are now requiring inspections of homes before then can be sold and the homes must be brought up to code on some items. Smoke and CO detectors are some of the items that must meet code before a home can be sold.
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Old 02-05-2013, 14:26   #50
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Re: Wiring Regulations?

About Crimp then Solder:

Why would anyone want to solder, an already gas tight (& cold welded) crimp connection?
Where would the solder go; and what advantage would it provide?

On the other hand, soldering a crimped connection might:
- render an unintended & unsupported “hard spot” on the conductor
- anneal the connector, softening it and “relaxing” the fitting barrel (loosening the crimp)
- add another dissimilar metal into the connection mix
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Old 02-05-2013, 14:26   #51
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Re: Wiring Regulations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
I believe that pull-out resistance (force) is directly correspondent to crimp pressure.
The optimal crimp pressure forms an intimate, gas tight (cold welded) connection; where the connection produces the highest mechanical strength, with the highest electrical conductivity.

The main criterion by which to judge the quality of a crimp connection is the retention force achieved by the wire conductor in the terminal section of the contact. Basically, the wire should break, before it pulls out of the terminator.

There are numerous standards*, specifying the pull out force a connection should withstand, (Main Sail's point being that) the ABYC standard being ludicrously lower than any other.

*Ie:
DIN IEC 60 352, part 2
MIL-T-7928 ➥ http://www.crimptech.com.au/pull_testing.pdf
UL 486 A
SAE AS7928 (Pg. 32) http://bbs.dianyuan.com/bbs/u/33/1127390364.pdf
NASA-STD-8739A)
Crimp Size Chart Information

For instance, for #14 AWG
70# Mil - 70# DIN - 65# NASA - SAE 50# - 30# ABYC
Thanks Gord! That is exactly my point. In your examples above the ABYC requirement is less than half of Mil, DIN and NASA and almost half of SAE (which I thinks is based on the USCAR standard)..
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Old 02-05-2013, 14:31   #52
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Re: Wiring Regulations?

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Thanks Gord! That is exactly my point. In your examples above the ABYC requirement is less than half of Mil, DIN and NASA and almost half of SAE (which I thinks is based on the USCAR standard)..
The thanks go to you, for properly pointing these discrepancies out to me (several years ago) when I cited ABYC Pulll-Out specs in my Wire Sizing Charts.

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Old 02-05-2013, 14:38   #53
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Re: Wiring Regulations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
About Crimp then Solder:

Why would anyone want to solder, an already gas tight (& cold welded) crimp connection?
Where would the solder go; and what advantage would it provide?

On the other hand, soldering a crimped connection might:
- render an unintended & unsupported “hard spot” on the conductor
- anneal the connector, softening it and “relaxing” the fitting barrel (loosening the crimp)
Funny that you ask. I have actually tried to solder an already crimped 1/0 lug after bring crimped with the FTZ tool. The solder absolutely would not flow into the crimped area. For self amusement I even used MAP gas and plumbers flux and it still would not flow. Use a hammer crimper, it flows....

One is a well made crimp the other a rather poor "get you by" crimp. Soldering can be done well using a heat sink to minimize wicking but when you use the proper tool it is not necessary unless an owner won't be able to sleep at night. I have a custom made heat sink tool I use for PL-259's that I clamp around the pin so that when I am up a windy mast I can heat the wire & tip enough to solder the tip without melting the insulation or teflon.

I call this the POM factor (piece of mind factor) and many owners suffer from it, I do on many things.

As an example last week I removed a fuel tank from a Sabre because the owner wanted to make sure it was okay. The tank, even for nearly 30 years old, was in exceptional shape with zero corrosion. I was in there for over a half hour with my scope camera and it literally looks like it was made yesterday.

I advised the owner that the tank was in great shape and that he could re-install it, but he insisted on a new tank, which is fine with me... POM factor at its best...
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Old 02-05-2013, 14:56   #54
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Re: Wiring Regulations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
About Crimp then Solder:

Why would anyone want to solder, an already gas tight (& cold welded) crimp connection?
Where would the solder go; and what advantage would it provide?

On the other hand, soldering a crimped connection might:
- render an unintended & unsupported “hard spot” on the conductor
- anneal the connector, softening it and “relaxing” the fitting barrel (loosening the crimp)
- add another dissimilar metal into the connection mix
As wrong as soldering an already crimped connector is, I have read where some people solder first and then crimp. Think about the results of that procedure.
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Old 02-05-2013, 15:17   #55
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Re: Wiring Regulations?

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Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
As wrong as soldering an already crimped connector is, I have read where some people solder first and then crimp. Think about the results of that procedure.

Pretty scary but even NASA has to be clear on this in their own standards....

Solder or tinning first then crimping defeats the mechanics of cold formed gas tight crimp. It can also damage the dies on the crimp tool and throw it out of calibration. This is what NASA says:

"4.3.4 Crimping. Stranded wire shall be used for crimping (Requirement). Crimping of solid wire is prohibited. Crimping of solder tinned wire is prohibited."


Amazing to me that even NASA has to clarify something like this...
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Old 02-05-2013, 15:21   #56
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Re: Wiring Regulations?

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
.............. Amazing to me that even NASA has to clarify something like this...
NASA's applications are pretty critical and if you don't spell it out in detail someone will eventually do it wrong.
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Old 02-05-2013, 15:22   #57
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Re: Wiring Regulations?

Does NASA allow crimping of factory tinned boat AWG wire?

Chas
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Old 02-05-2013, 15:28   #58
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Re: Wiring Regulations?

Soldering a well made crimp is poor practice. At best it offers no benefit and is generally detrimental.

However, soldering a crimp made with a a poor quantity, or inappropriately sized connecter, or crimping tool, can transform a poor connection into a satisfactory one.

A soldered joint is time consuming and requires some skill, but a suitable electrical joint can almost always be made.

Crimp only when you can get good quality terminals and use good quality crimping tools.
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Old 02-05-2013, 15:58   #59
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Re: Wiring Regulations?

Thanks Gord and MS for clarifying the crimp pull-out spec.

It raises a few more (hopefully final) questions:
- can the higher standard crimp tests (mil, DIN) be met with all the crimp connectors available to the recreational boater?
- is there any empirical evidence that suggests a crimp that only makes it to the ABYC spec will actually fail sooner in normal marine life? A question for Ed Sherman (ABYC), maybe.

I get that "more" is better; I'm just wondering if the added investment in crimping tool and calibration to mil or DIN -spec force will result in measurably longer connection lifespan.
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Old 02-05-2013, 16:10   #60
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Re: Wiring Regulations?

Sealed Crimp and Solder Connectors
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