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Old 01-05-2013, 19:00   #31
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Re: Wiring Regulations?

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Originally Posted by Ldylightfoot View Post
Just for grins, I put a couple work photos on my profile. Fun with wiring!
Nice work. You'll do a fine job on any boat. Looks like you already have a crimper.
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Old 01-05-2013, 19:14   #32
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Re: Wiring Regulations?

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Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
Manufacturers crimp the connections, they don't solder them...
Right, and when they have problems with their crimped connections, they tell the field engineers to solder every crimped terminal in the affected circuit.

I could care less if you like it, but it's the cold, hard truth.
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Old 01-05-2013, 19:15   #33
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A different twist to the original question. If you're rerunning the wiring in the mast - I add an addition step and swap out the anchor light for an led type.
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Old 01-05-2013, 19:20   #34
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Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
I feel sorry for anyone who has to get his or her electrical information on boating forums. They are being fed a bunch of crap.
Wow, kinda harsh. I was asking for, and received, directions to find the standards and regs for the marine world that I'm starting to learn about. Links were provided. I will read them. I live by regs at work (14CFR, formerly Federal Aviation Regulations), and am pretty certain I can translate federaleeze well enough to do my boat proud.

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Originally Posted by sushirama View Post
Don't lick the red wires without a really heavy industrial adult diaper on. Everything else should be ok.
:-D An oft used phrase at work: "I'm gonna put power on the plane. Don't lick the cannon plugs!"

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Nice work. You'll do a fine job on any boat. Looks like you already have a crimper.
Thanks! I think things will turn out well! :-)

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Old 01-05-2013, 19:22   #35
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Originally Posted by Tonyjay View Post
A different twist to the original question. If you're rerunning the wiring in the mast - I add an addition step and swap out the anchor light for an led type.
Oooh! Great idea! Thanks! (And hubby says he'd thought about that already, and swapping the nav lights, too, but it hadn't come up in either conversation or budget yet!)
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Old 01-05-2013, 22:21   #36
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Re: Wiring Regulations?

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Originally Posted by Ldylightfoot View Post
Now there's info I was looking for! .............acquiring some of our environmental splices from work, then! Crimp splice with heat-shrink sleeve with sealant at both ends of the sleeve. ........D
Assuming your are talking about Raychem (Tyco) splices like the D-436 etc. (http://raychem.te.com/documents/webs...8460&docId=927)
IF so, please be aware that these are really only suitable for teflon insulated wire - MS22759 etc and are not suitable for PVC insulated wire (as often found in the marine wiring).

The temperature required to fully seal the ends of these splices exceed that of PVC .
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Old 02-05-2013, 00:37   #37
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Standards such as AYBC tend to cause uniform *low* standards across an industry. It is almost always advisable to exceed them. Rather like building codes for homes: fully meeting them can result it complete crap. And Mil specs: MRE food meets Mil spec, is it better than food at a stall in Bangkok? Doubt it.

That point about PVC insulation above proves the point by that it is the lowest cost crappiest insulation available. Paper and tar might be safer. If safety was any concern at all to AYBC they wouldn't allow PVC in power circuits.
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Old 02-05-2013, 10:07   #38
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Re: Wiring Regulations?

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
I've never heard of any regulations that apply to recreational boat wiring.
Title 33 part 183 of the code of federal regulations applies to vessels manufactured or used primarily for noncommercial use. Subpart I of part 183 applies to electrical installations aboard boats with inboard gasoline engines. Although not required on boats with diesel engines, manufacturers follow part 183 subpart I regulations and ABYC recommendations for all noncommercial boats with respect to boat wiring.

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Old 02-05-2013, 10:35   #39
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Re: Wiring Regulations?

"the EU RCD Directive then"
Doesn't apply to Colonials working on their own privately owned American boats in America. I have no reason to keep track of what the EU requires for EU natives.

Similarly, the regulations concerning US manufacturers have no bearing here. The context is regulations affecting what private owners do on their privately owned boats in the US, and AFAIK there are no regulations requiring private owners to maintain any standards for their wiring. The USCG might be concerned about ignition protection on gasoline engines--but that doesn't affect the wiring guage, color codes, or even whether the switches and breakers on the boat have to be ignition protected.

Context gents, context. You want to wire up your nav lights and radio with used zip cord, there's nothing to stop you.
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Old 02-05-2013, 11:32   #40
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Re: Wiring Regulations?

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
... You want to wire up your nav lights and radio with used zip cord, there's nothing to stop you.
Except, sound and prudent judgment, based on knowledge and experience.
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Old 02-05-2013, 11:44   #41
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Re: Wiring Regulations?

Catch-22, Gord. If one HAD sound and prudent judgement, one wouldn't want to wire up the boat with used zip cord to start with.

And while even reasonable judgement might say "Let's follow the ABYC codes" the budget realities of buying whole spools of wire in a dozen colors mean that ain't usually gonna happen either.

So it comes back to "each to their own" and no regulations to affect the OP's context.
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Old 02-05-2013, 12:11   #42
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Re: Wiring Regulations?

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Originally Posted by Ldylightfoot View Post
Wow, kinda harsh. I was asking for, and received, directions to find the standards and regs for the marine world that I'm starting to learn about. Links were provided. I will read them. I live by regs at work (14CFR, formerly Federal Aviation Regulations), and am pretty certain I can translate federaleeze well enough to do my boat proud.
And I tried to help. Look at what followed.

You must understand that once you start a threat on an Internet forum, it is no longer exclusively yours and you have no control over it. People respond to your post, then others respond to their posts and so on until the original subject is forgotten.

As I posted way back, there is nothing to compel boat owners to work to any sort of standard. You see this on forums quite a lot. People who have no idea what they are talking about giving advice and then arguing if anyone calls them on it.

You also see people who have very low standards and expectations who are trying to make themselves feel better by encouraging others to be just as sloppy in their work.

It appears to me from your posts that you are not one of these people, that you want to do it right the first time so as to not have to do it a second time and so as not to be stranded at sea with no power.

I encourage you and anyone else who undertakes a job to understand what you are doing before you begin to do it and expect nothing less than the best from yourself.
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Old 02-05-2013, 12:18   #43
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Re: Wiring Regulations?

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Standards such as AYBC tend to cause uniform *low* standards across an industry.
As others have pointed out, recreational boating has NO enforced electrical standards. Something is better than nothing.

Secondly, ABYC standards are achievable but also high enough that surveyors and insurers use them, and many commercial boat-builders voluntarily work to them.

MS brought up his low opinion of the ABYC spec for crimp pressure. I'm not 100% sure, but I wonder if he's possibly taken the number for pull resistance, for crimp pressure? ABYC does specify the minimum pulling force applied to a crimped connection that it should be able to withstand. I'll try to look it up later.

Quote:
That point about PVC insulation above proves the point by that it is the lowest cost crappiest insulation available. Paper and tar might be safer. If safety was any concern at all to AYBC they wouldn't allow PVC in power circuits.
PVC insulation is spec'ed by temp rating, and sometimes also by fire rating. I don't know where you get your info, but PVC is a superior wire insulator over paper & tar in just about every category I can think of (especially on a boat!!!), except maybe resistance to external heat. Care in positioning and shielding should address that weakness.

PVC insulated wire most often fails when extreme external influence (heat, flame, blows, pulls, etc) are present, or excessive current is run.

Connection problems are far and away the greatest problem with boat wiring, not some inherent weakness of the wire or its jacket.
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Old 02-05-2013, 12:22   #44
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Re: Wiring Regulations?

Actually, LadyL did not ask about standards at all. She specifically asked for regulations. In a specfic context. And the answer to the question she asked remains "there are none applicable to you."

As to standards, those have changed over time and continue to change. Try to find a primary battery fuse on any boat built in the 70's. Odds are you won't, but you will find fusible link wire on the alternator, which is now considered a fire hazard and no longer in common use. It was universal on cars and boats and "best practice" in those industries at that time.

3M makes some pricey infrared-shrink gas-tight solder-ringed connectors, for NASA, that put ordinary crimps and adhesive heatshrink to shame. If you're familiar with them as aerospace parts, you might not want to lower your standards to ordinary crimps that are the usual "best practice" on boats. If you don't have the matching heat gun and you have no local source for them, you wouldn't want to consider them at all.

Her question was not "What is good practice" nor was it "Should I use milspec or NASA standards". Good judgement and practice, or whatever one considers adequate for their own circumstances, were not what she asked.

So I for one, only answered the question she asked. I rashly presumed that she asked a specific question for a specific reason, since given her background and her husband's, one can reasonably assume they wouldn't be planning on zip cord, with or without regulations.

LadyL, you will find that any (US) government standard (standard, not regulation) including milspec, NASA, or FAA, will far exceed what is used in the pleasure boat industry, and considered more than adequate and acceptable by anyone that might have a concern, including private insurers or the USCG.
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Old 02-05-2013, 12:55   #45
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Re: Wiring Regulations?

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Standards such as AYBC tend to cause uniform *low* standards across an industry...
Nope. They try to insure that the boat (or home or whatever) is safe and reasonably well built. Without such standards, a purchaser would have no idea of what he/she is purchasing.

Exceeding the standards is fine but most folks will not pay the premium for things they can't see or feel.
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