Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 30-03-2014, 06:42   #31
Registered User
 
Wonderinlost's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: NJ
Boat: 1972 Aquarius 23'
Posts: 229
Re: Wiring of american to european shore power plug

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyMdRSailor View Post
I think I can add some insight here... I once had a Swiss (neutral) girlfriend who spoke no English... and indeed was very hot... I think she was in love, but ultimately needed more than my 110(mm)...

This sadly too did not work out on a long term basis...
I feel your pain Happy

I once had one who asked for 220mm and to make it hurt. So I had at her 4 times and then I punched her in the head..... never saw her again.... sniff... she was a shocker

wondering around with no destionation
__________________

__________________
Wonderinlost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2014, 07:12   #32
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Cruz
Boat: Boatless Again
Posts: 4,336
Re: Wiring of american to european shore power plug

Think about salt vs fresh water electrocution this way. Fresh water is a lot less conductive than your body, while salt water is a lot more conductive than you are. If you are swimming in an electric field, you are a parallel circuit path with your medium. In fresh water you are the conductor of choice, whereas in salt water you are the high resistance path and will get very little current.

As far as genset issues go, the genset switches cut both the neutral and hot wires aso there is no issue there for the OP.

Dave has now aroused my curiosity about EU wiring. In the US, the neutral is always grounded and the neutral is never broken by a switch--the switches are always on the hot side. That means if I want to replace a light bulb (or even a light fixture), all I have to do is turn off the wall switch and I am safe. Further, if I want to work on branch wiring, all I have to do is through the breaker which turns off the hot side. So how do I do all that in an EU house--if the neutral can be hot, where can I disconnect it too??

One of the first lessons for RTW cruisers--every new marina will have a new shore power plug, and you need to learn how to use a multimeter to suss out which wire is which and connect it correctly to your shore power cord. I think I ended up with a collection of a dozen plugs.
__________________

__________________
donradcliffe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2014, 07:34   #33
Moderator
 
HappyMdRSailor's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: North Mississippi
Boat: 48 Wauquiez Pilot Saloon-C22 Chrysler Sunpiper- 19 Potter-Preparing to cruise w/my girl
Posts: 5,980
Re: Wiring of american to european shore power plug

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderinlost View Post
I feel your pain Happy

I once had one who asked for 220mm and to make it hurt. So I had at her 4 times and then I punched her in the head..... never saw her again.... sniff... she was a shocker

wondering around with no destionation
Common theme of sailing off into the sunset alone.... But happy none the less for the path traveled to the boat!
__________________
In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair...

Mai Tai's fix everything...
HappyMdRSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2014, 07:52   #34
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Wiring of american to european shore power plug

Quote:
Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
Think about salt vs fresh water electrocution this way. Fresh water is a lot less conductive than your body, while salt water is a lot more conductive than you are. If you are swimming in an electric field, you are a parallel circuit path with your medium. In fresh water you are the conductor of choice, whereas in salt water you are the high resistance path and will get very little current.

As far as genset issues go, the genset switches cut both the neutral and hot wires aso there is no issue there for the OP.

Dave has now aroused my curiosity about EU wiring. In the US, the neutral is always grounded and the neutral is never broken by a switch--the switches are always on the hot side. That means if I want to replace a light bulb (or even a light fixture), all I have to do is turn off the wall switch and I am safe. Further, if I want to work on branch wiring, all I have to do is through the breaker which turns off the hot side. So how do I do all that in an EU house--if the neutral can be hot, where can I disconnect it too??

One of the first lessons for RTW cruisers--every new marina will have a new shore power plug, and you need to learn how to use a multimeter to suss out which wire is which and connect it correctly to your shore power cord. I think I ended up with a collection of a dozen plugs.

The standard EU installation typically requires either a local earth or neutral tied to earth at a common premises point. Hence for practical purposes the system is not unlike the US. Most neutrals will be near ground potential.

The difference is emphasis, many EU sockets , just like American sockets are unpolarised, floating neutrals are not uncommon , as are reversed polarity marina pillars. EU boats typically do not indicate reverse polarity.

If working on 220vac , I would rarely rely on disconnecting the branch breaker, the main double pole disconnect is thrown ( commonly integrated into the RCD ). In a push , I use the electricans trick of touching the live with the back of my right hand and letting the RCBO trip out !!! ( kids, don't try this at home ! ) , handy for ,a quickie remote disconnect !!

But I would never work on a branch just isolated by its single pole breaker and assume its dead ( nor should you either )

But then 110vac is so wonderfully wimpy

Dave


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2014, 08:21   #35
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Wiring of american to european shore power plug

For those of you wishing more enlightenment , there is a good document by NEMA Comparing the NEC with the european IEC 60 364.

http://www.nema.org/Standards/Pages/...rspective.aspx

Note that IEC 60364 is not an apples and apples comparison with NEC , but really a overarching guidance document to develop specific national wiring standards. Gradually EU wiring standards are converging on the principles of IEC 60364, but even within that there is significant national variation and of course large legacy installations


Irrespective, the issue of the OP , is not a function of specific EU wiring principles. The theory is good on all boats.


By the way here's what IEC 60364 defines a " live conductor "
(826) Live part: A conductor or conductive part intended to be energized in normal use, including a neutral conductor, but, by convention, not a PEN conductor.
Note: This term does not necessarily imply a risk of electric shock.

Which makes the term "live" and " neutral" commonly used in the UK some what meaningless

Dave


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2014, 12:39   #36
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: On board in Alanya, Turkey
Boat: Hunter Legend 420 Passage
Posts: 626
Re: Wiring of american to european shore power plug

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Orchid View Post
...The plug i bought reads 125/250V. Is there another way to connect it that is more safe? I'm guessing it will be connecting the fourth wire?
If you're guessing then don't do it - you've been told that by enough people on here.

I'm a great believer in Darwin's Theory of Natural selection. The weak and the stupid will die off - I just hope they don't take other sensible ones with them.
__________________
sailinglegend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2014, 19:12   #37
Registered User
 
van demon's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland Australia
Boat: Van de stadt 40
Posts: 69
Images: 12
Re: Wiring of american to european shore power plug

[QI hoping tOTE=goboatingnow;1505316]The standard EU installation typically requires either a local earth or neutral tied to earth at a common premises point. Hence for practical purposes the system is not unlike the US. Most neutrals will be near ground potential.

The difference is emphasis, many EU sockets , just like American sockets are unpolarised, floating neutrals are not uncommon , as are reversed polarity marina pillars. EU boats typically do not indicate reverse polarity.

If working on 220vac , I would rarely rely on disconnecting the branch breaker, the main double pole disconnect is thrown ( commonly integrated into the RCD ). In a push , I use the electricans trick of touching the live with the back of my right hand and letting the RCBO trip out !!! ( kids, don't try this at home ! ) , handy for ,a quickie remote disconnect !!

But I would never work on a branch just isolated by its single pole breaker and assume its dead ( nor should you either )

But then 110vac is so wonderfully wimpy

Dave


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

Ive never heard of that old electricians trick of grounding the phase conductor on the back of your hand and if one of my employees had been so stupid as to try it i would fire him on the spot, i hope no one on here is daft enough to try it either it the equivilant of Russian roulette, how to know the rcbo will trip in less than 200ms as it should you don't

Regards Steve
__________________
van demon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2014, 03:33   #38
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: Wiring of american to european shore power plug

Quote:
Ive never heard of that old electricians trick of grounding the phase conductor on the back of your hand and if one of my employees had been so stupid as to try it i would fire him on the spot, i hope no one on here is daft enough to try it either it the equivilant of Russian roulette, how to know the rcbo will trip in less than 200ms as it should you don't

Regards Steve

Seen it done several times, buys wearing rubber soled boats on dry concrete floors.

PS under new harmonised rules, 300ms trip for 100% trip current, 40ms for 5x trip current response times


dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2014, 04:07   #39
Registered User
 
van demon's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland Australia
Boat: Van de stadt 40
Posts: 69
Images: 12
Re: Wiring of american to european shore power plug

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Seen it done several times, buys wearing rubber soled boats on dry concrete floors.

PS under new harmonised rules, 300ms trip for 100% trip current, 40ms for 5x trip current response times


dave
which countries regulations that for dave?

300ms au 200ms uk well it was when i was last in the uk
__________________
van demon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2014, 04:44   #40
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Switzerland
Boat: So many boats to choose from. Would prefer something that is not an AWB, and that is beachable...
Posts: 1,242
Re: Wiring of american to european shore power plug

Quote:
Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
Dave has now aroused my curiosity about EU wiring. In the US, the neutral is always grounded and the neutral is never broken by a switch--the switches are always on the hot side. That means if I want to replace a light bulb (or even a light fixture), all I have to do is turn off the wall switch and I am safe. Further, if I want to work on branch wiring, all I have to do is through the breaker which turns off the hot side. So how do I do all that in an EU house--if the neutral can be hot, where can I disconnect it too??
Properly wired live will be brown, neutral will be blue and earth is green/yellow. Switches usually only cut live (and usually a black wire is used downstream of the switch).
Replacing a bulb I usually don't even worry whether it's switched off or not. Can't tell if it's on or off with the bulb burnt out anyway. Replacing a fixture I will just switch off the circuit at the breakers, and these will cut both live and neutral. However per Swiss law I'm actually not supposed to work on the system myself. I do it anyway though...

Neutral will be grounded at the neighborhoods' substation. The high voltage distribution network is three phase so you always see power lines with sets of three wires. Then at the substation a neutral is added, grounded at the substation. Four wires will then enter your premises. Three live, one neutral, and the circuits in your house will be distributed across them. For heave appliances three phase sockets (having five pins, L1,L2,L3,N,PE) exists, that deliver 400V. Typical use is for washing machines and electric ovens and ranges.

The difference is with appliances. Most of Europe uses sockets that do not enforce polarity. Hence when electricians wire them they usually won't bother with having the live and neutral consistently wired up. Which means that anything that is intended to be connected/disconnected to a power socket must be build under the assumption that live an neutral can (and will) be reversed. Hence circuit breakers must cut both wires, and neutral must be shielded as well as live, and certainly not tied to ground.
__________________
K_V_B is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2014, 06:00   #41
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: Wiring of american to european shore power plug

three phase into domestic installations seems to be common in germany, austria and switzerland. It is not common elsewhere, though easy to get it added should you wish , but there is typically a charge.


Note the following is for houses, NOT boats.

Note that as in North America, European supply to the house is polarised ( see below for IT systems ) , i.e. Neutral is at or close to earth potential. The most common grounding systems are known a TN-S or TN-CS, in the UK TN-C, is separate N and E from the power distribution centre, the E is carried into the premises using the conductive ( usually lead ), jacket over the buried cable , useful in housing estates etc, as it avoid the need for ground rods.

Today a lot of system are TN-C-S, i.e. a combined PEN wire from the power source is terminated at the consumer premises and there the earth wire is connected to the Neutral, Multiple grounding points are maintained to ensure the neutral is at earth potential, ( other wise you get the tingling sensation!!)

TT installations using a locally supplied ground rod were common , less so now,

IN scandavian countries an IT supply using floating feeds was common, less so now under harmonised standards.


Boats on the other hand , when fed by shore power are effectively treated as appliances.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2014, 11:35   #42
Registered User
 
Dauntlessny's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: USA & Europe
Boat: Kadey Krogen '42
Posts: 273
Re: Wiring of american to european shore power plug

So with all that has been said here, I am still curious as to the exact plug i will need to connect to marina shore power in norway, Denmark and the netherlands??

RIchard
__________________
Dauntlessny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2014, 13:03   #43
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Switzerland
Boat: So many boats to choose from. Would prefer something that is not an AWB, and that is beachable...
Posts: 1,242
Wiring of american to european shore power plug

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dauntlessny View Post
So with all that has been said here, I am still curious as to the exact plug i will need to connect to marina shore power in norway, Denmark and the netherlands??

RIchard

This one:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...ug_Pinning.png
__________________
K_V_B is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2015, 14:59   #44
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: UK
Boat: Oyster 575
Posts: 16
Re: Wiring of american to european shore power plug

i know this is an old post but i wonder if someone could clarify for me.

i am making up a tail to connect a European yacht shore power lead to a US 240v dock supply. i have a European female three pin 32 amp adaptor at one end and a Marinco 50 amp male locking plug at the other. Can someone confirm if Golden Orchids wiring diagram for the Marinco plug is correct? There were so many posts on this subject with scary comments that i am now confused. any help gratefully received.
__________________
www.yachtjuno.com
Yachtjuno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2015, 15:07   #45
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Oslo
Boat: Najad 34. 1979
Posts: 39
Re: Wiring of american to european shore power plug

It worked for us in the US, but I am only as wise as I was in my last post. Have not done any further research. Good luck
__________________

__________________
Golden Orchid is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
Europe, plug, rope, shore power, wiring

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Smart Plug shore power connectors s/v Jedi Product or Service Reviews & Evaluations 24 16-04-2013 16:42
Shore Power and 110v Wiring TheScarab Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 58 19-01-2012 08:16
30 Amp Shore Power Receptacle Wiring Diagram Needed sdowney717 Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 6 24-08-2011 10:08
For Sale: European Shore Power Transformer D365 Classifieds Archive 0 13-03-2011 00:47
European Boats vs North American - Electrical Systems the_cowper Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 9 12-02-2010 10:49



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:04.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.