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Old 30-03-2014, 04:06   #16
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Re: Wiring of american to european shore power plug

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Nonsense , stop Inventing non existent fault modes. About the only thing that had " hot" chassis are old US valve radios.
I think "nonsense" is a very strong word and shows no "respect" for what is a very important subject. Anybody who is not qualified should NOT play with AC and rewire plugs as a cheap way to get 240 volts onto their EU boat.

If there is ANY chance that the neutral and earth are connected on equipment then why take the risk. In North America, the cases of some ranges, cook tops, ovens, clothes dryers and other specifically listed appliances were grounded through their neutral wires as a measure to conserve copper from copper cables during the Second World War. This practice was removed from the National Electrical Code only in the 1996 edition!!!!!!

We repeatedly get "Reverse Polarity" warnings in the Med and our boat then trips the whole pontoon sometimes because out Victron MultiPlus charger/inverter will not stand with 240 volts on the Neutral bus. If you look in our instrument/storage/electrical locker the neutral bus is exposed and could easily have something metal touch it. Ours is an 240volt American Hunter Legend. Have a second fault where the earth wire is not connected and you have a recipe for disaster. Here in Turkey when we lifted out out shorepower pod had no earth wire - it happens too often in the real world.

This article highlights the problems of "playing with electrics." This guy killed his wife and daughter who were swimming in the marina.

The Case of the Hot Marina | content content from Electrical Construction & Maintenance (EC&M) Magazine
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Old 30-03-2014, 04:13   #17
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Re: Wiring of american to european shore power plug

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
a...So folks stop being hysterical, just think about the systems and how they interact....
That's the problem - people's limited knowledge won't protect them.

Yes european AC systems on land don't care what polarity live and neutral is - but AC and water don't mix - FACT.

Please have more respect for a potential lethal situation, because you are only confusing people.
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Old 30-03-2014, 04:19   #18
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Re: Wiring of american to european shore power plug

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Originally Posted by sailinglegend View Post
That's the problem - people's limited knowledge won't protect them.



Yes european AC systems on land don't care what polarity live and neutral is - but AC and water don't mix - FACT.



Please have more respect for a potential lethal situation, because you are only confusing people.

Please have more respect for a proper understanding of AC and it's various fault modes rather then parroting hysteria

Stupid things like" AC and water" don't mix are just cliches.

I have set out the precise situation as would pertain to a European boat using a US split phase supply.

Hysterical comments about burning down marinas and invalidating his insurance are just that.

You might note the OP has already done the conversion

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Old 30-03-2014, 04:28   #19
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Wiring of american to european shore power plug

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailinglegend View Post
I think "nonsense" is a very strong word and shows no "respect" for what is a very important subject. Anybody who is not qualified should NOT play with AC and rewire plugs as a cheap way to get 240 volts onto their EU boat.



If there is ANY chance that the neutral and earth are connected on equipment then why take the risk. In North America, the cases of some ranges, cook tops, ovens, clothes dryers and other specifically listed appliances were grounded through their neutral wires as a measure to conserve copper from copper cables during the Second World War. This practice was removed from the National Electrical Code only in the 1996 edition!!!!!!



We repeatedly get "Reverse Polarity" warnings in the Med and our boat then trips the whole pontoon sometimes because out Victron MultiPlus charger/inverter will not stand with 240 volts on the Neutral bus. If you look in our instrument/storage/electrical locker the neutral bus is exposed and could easily have something metal touch it. Ours is an 240volt American Hunter Legend. Have a second fault where the earth wire is not connected and you have a recipe for disaster. Here in Turkey when we lifted out out shorepower pod had no earth wire - it happens too often in the real world.



This article highlights the problems of "playing with electrics." This guy killed his wife and daughter who were swimming in the marina.



The Case of the Hot Marina | content content from Electrical Construction & Maintenance (EC&M) Magazine

Firstly , I had a boat in the med. Being an engineer I test for mains polarity. Even when it was reversed , I never tripped out anybody.

If the OP , in his European coded boat , does have an onboard neutral to earth fault, then his RCBO will trip, just like if he had a " hot " fault

I know of no European appliances that connect ground to neutral. It would be illegal.

If your neutral bus is exposed, I suggest you cover it , very bad practice , in Europe No assumptions are made that neutral isn't " live " neutral installations in Europe must follow the same safety precautions as live. Your 240 vac hunter would fail CE for that fact alone

If your multiplus is tripping because of reverse polarity , I suggest you have it examined, it's faulty. ( or else you have a neutral earth bridge somewhere )

Please stop quoting swimming accidents. iF US practice was to fit RCBOs everywhere , there wouldn't be these accidents in the first place , note these accidents are almost impossible in salt water. If US code at the time imposed RCDs for boats that accident you quote wouldn't happen. It's more hysteria to quote it out of context.

Note even with no earth wire connected the RCD will protect the circuit. Moto to you FIT A whole boat RCD, then the Turkish situation will pose no danger

I use the term " nonsense " because are parroting " faults ", hysteria ( burn the marina ), and assumptions ( invalidate his insurance ) without applying any logic or reason or actual knowledge of European or US wiring or A/C fault mechanisms

Note to OP , don't do it , you'll burn the boat, the marina , most of continental US as well, fry all swimmers and fry yourself on your wW2 installed US cooktops , or 50s US valve radio, you somehow sourced in the French garage sale !!!!, there that's good engineering understanding )

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Old 30-03-2014, 05:16   #20
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Re: Wiring of american to european shore power plug

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
...Please stop quoting swimming accidents....note these accidents are almost impossible in salt water...
Strange comment - are you suggesting saltwater is less conductive than fresh water.

Electricity is the flow of charges. It is the presence of minerals that allow water to conduct electricity. Perfectly pure water without impurities will not conduct electricity. When salts dissolve in water, they form ions (NaCl becomes Na+ and Cl-, for example) and it is these ions that carry charge. This is why salt water is a good conductor of electricity.

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....Note even with no earth wire connected the RCD will protect the circuit.
Another controversial comment - which is partially true - but it suggests that you don't need to have an earth connected to your boat. Bad advice I would suggest.

EDIT: It would be helpful if you could qualify many of your comments, instead of just trying to wind people up.
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Old 30-03-2014, 05:21   #21
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Wiring of american to european shore power plug

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailinglegend View Post
Strange comment - are you suggesting saltwater is less conductive than fresh water.



Electricity is the flow of charges. It is the presence of minerals that allow water to conduct electricity. Perfectly pure water without impurities will not conduct electricity. When salts dissolve in water, they form ions (NaCl becomes Na+ and Cl-, for example) and it is these ions that carry charge. This is why salt water is a good conductor of electricity.





Another controversial comment - which is partially true - but it suggests that you don't need to have an earth connected to your boat. Bad advice I would suggest.

Firstly electro drowning is largely confined to Fresh water preciously because of the conductivity you mentioned. If you need I can discuss the issue in depth . In Europe where boats, marina pillars, marina installations are festooned with RCDs , that type of incident is extremely ( never heard of it ) rare.

I never suggested that you shouldn't connect an earth. What I said is that if you install a whole boat RCD you provide protection from the situation you describe in Turkey.

It is extremely foolish to rely on external earth wire connections to provide 100 % security. That's why all my external flying leads have integral RCDs.

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Old 30-03-2014, 05:27   #22
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Re: Wiring of american to european shore power plug

If your goal is to only use your battery charger then I'd agree with Smac, just wire that in straight. It eliminates all the above conversation.
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Old 30-03-2014, 05:44   #23
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Re: Wiring of american to european shore power plug

Everyones getting a bit testy here, but as another electrical engineer, i have to say that dave is correct. Although i discourage people from making adaptations because most don't know what they are doing, dave has correctly outlined the risks, and they are minimal.
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Old 30-03-2014, 05:44   #24
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Re: Wiring of american to european shore power plug

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
However bear in mind that you will have most likely single AC breakers hence even of switch off, the neutral will be still love with 110

It will work , but I would recommend it on any long term basis
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I think I can add some insight here... I once had a Swiss (neutral) girlfriend who spoke no English... and indeed was very hot... I think she was in love, but ultimately needed more than my 110(mm)...

This sadly too did not work out on a long term basis...
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Old 30-03-2014, 05:47   #25
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Re: Wiring of american to european shore power plug

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Everyones getting a bit testy here, but as another electrical engineer, i have to say that dave is correct. Although i discourage people from making adaptations because most don't know what they are doing, dave has correctly outlined the risks, and they are minimal.

Thanks, I was merely trying to separate the engineering from the " ohh electricity is dangerous " technical " argument

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Old 30-03-2014, 05:50   #26
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Re: Wiring of american to european shore power plug

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I think I can add some insight here... I once had a Swiss (neutral) girlfriend who spoke no English... and indeed was very hot... I think she was in love, but ultimately needed more than my 110(mm)...

This sadly too did not work out on a long term basis...

Perhaps lacking adequate protection, it's was the best thing that a disconnect occurred the pundits would have you burn the bed down !!

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Old 30-03-2014, 06:01   #27
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Re: Wiring of american to european shore power plug

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Firstly electro drowning is largely confined to Fresh water preciously because of the conductivity you mentioned...
Yes you are right but Nigel Calder has also spoken out on this and a lot of research is being done to understand the problem.

QUOTE: Boatowner’s Mechanical and Electrical Manual – Nigel Calder

....there has been mounting evidence “that some deaths around marinas that were originally classified as drowning were, in fact, caused by electric shocks.”

....AC leaks into fresh or brackish water are considered to be more dangerous than the less resistive salt water. Leaks into salt water tend to follow the shortest path to ground, directly to the bottom or to adjacent vessels with well-grounded systems, whereas leaks in fresh water radiate out into the surrounding water from the fitting that is feeding the current into the water. (Note that in salt water there could still be a severe shock hazard for someone cleaning a boat bottom or checking the propeller or other hardware.)
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Old 30-03-2014, 06:19   #28
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Re: Wiring of american to european shore power plug

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailinglegend View Post
I think "nonsense" is a very strong word and shows no "respect" for what is a very important subject. Anybody who is not qualified should NOT play with AC and rewire plugs as a cheap way to get 240 volts onto their EU boat.

If there is ANY chance that the neutral and earth are connected on equipment then why take the risk. In North America, the cases of some ranges, cook tops, ovens, clothes dryers and other specifically listed appliances were grounded through their neutral wires as a measure to conserve copper from copper cables during the Second World War. This practice was removed from the National Electrical Code only in the 1996 edition!!!!!!

We repeatedly get "Reverse Polarity" warnings in the Med and our boat then trips the whole pontoon sometimes because out Victron MultiPlus charger/inverter will not stand with 240 volts on the Neutral bus. If you look in our instrument/storage/electrical locker the neutral bus is exposed and could easily have something metal touch it. Ours is an 240volt American Hunter Legend. Have a second fault where the earth wire is not connected and you have a recipe for disaster. Here in Turkey when we lifted out out shorepower pod had no earth wire - it happens too often in the real world.

This article highlights the problems of "playing with electrics." This guy killed his wife and daughter who were swimming in the marina.

The Case of the Hot Marina | content content from Electrical Construction & Maintenance (EC&M) Magazine
EU wiring and US wiring have different standards and safety procedures. EU wiring is not polarized and it does not use a neutral that is tied to ground. There is no such thing as reverse polarity with EU wiring.

In the EU, both conductors are considered live and both sides of the circuit should have overcurrent protection. The US (ABYC) only requires overcurrrent protection for ungrounded conductors (black wire in 110v).

You will have exposed bus bars in your electrical distribution panels. I hope you don't have anything loose that can come into contact with the wiring inside your distribution panel. This is a non-issue. If you have to work in that area - disconnect the power.

The ideal solution is to use an isolation transformer. However there is nothing unsafe with what the OP is doing.
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Old 30-03-2014, 06:25   #29
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Re: Wiring of american to european shore power plug

Thanks Dave and others with informed opinions on this topic.

I have in fact a RCD. I think i will continue to use this setup.

The plug i bought reads 125/250V. Is there another way to connect it that is more safe? I'm guessing it will be connecting the fourth wire?
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Old 30-03-2014, 06:32   #30
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Re: Wiring of american to european shore power plug

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Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post
Everyones getting a bit testy here, but as another electrical engineer, i have to say that dave is correct. Although i discourage people from making adaptations because most don't know what they are doing, dave has correctly outlined the risks, and they are minimal.
+1

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Perhaps lacking adequate protection, it's was the best thing that a disconnect occurred the pundits would have you burn the bed down !!

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I completely agree Dave... She was a station wagon loving closet nympho, and I was an overcompensating red turbo Porsche guy... Electricity? ... Oh Yes... Long term compatability??? Too many grounding issues...
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