Wiring mess

[CatNewBee]

nope.
It is always a good thing to have a working second battery on board. starting battery must work to be able to start the engine whenyou need it. it is bad seamanship to have to dive to the propeller to cranc the engine when the house battery is dead.

[OldManMirage]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

nope.
It is always a good thing to have a working second battery on board. starting battery must work to be able to start the engine whenyou need it. it is bad seamanship to have to dive to the propeller to cranc the engine when the house battery is dead.

Right. That's how I feel too. So many opinions on how to manage it ! Of course I realize every boat is different.

Ok, in order to give this thread back to the OP, I'm starting a new one to help me out. I'll try to think it out first but it will be up in a bit. I appreciate all wisdom !

[sainted]

Most folks these days believe that one large house bank of say 600-800 amp hours coupled with a single starting battery appropriate to your engine requirements, say a group 31 for a four cylinder diesel, is the way to go. This setup gives the ability to deep cycle the house batteries using some kind of state of charge meter while having a back up to start the engine should the house batteries become completely discharged.

BTW, the schematics posted previously show a good setup. That's the way I have my Stevens setup, and I do this for a living.

As to wiring supply sources and brands, Anchor makes good stuff, but it's too expensive. Go on line to bestboatwire or Gregsmarinewiresupply and get your supplies there. Their stuff is great and way cheaper than West Marine.

You'll need way more terminals and such than you imagine. Buy in quantities of 100. Personally, I like double crimp terminals over the heat shrink types. Unless your boat is particularly wet inside, they'll last four years. The ones on my Stevens were 30 years old. A few had broken under the sheer where is a bit damp, but that's it.

Your next decision is whether to run primary wire or duplex from the panel. I like to use primary wire because I can color code it. You know, viloet for house lights, blue for running lights, red for b+, etc. You can also cut down on the number of ground returns. That is, use one ground wire as the return for several appliances: just go up a size.

Here are a couple of pics:

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Last but not least, you may be able to reuse your existing switch panel. I know the new ones are sexy, but your old one is probably fine. The wiring is just a mess.

Good luck!

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by dnimigon

Here’s a pic of our Cat 30 wiring. Still works, kinda of. Want to change the whole setup. Any suggestions. Not rich. So need to be reasonable.

I have to say that's not the worst panel wiring I've ever seen. Often, something is seen as "a mess" if it's not understood. Spend some time inspecting and tracing the wires, labelling wires, and attempting to bundle and neatly route wires, if there's enough slack. Make notes and diagrams. This might increase your confidence level with the current wiring.

Aim to replace any wire nuts as already mentioned, with a crimped splice or a terminal strip. Test every panel circuit to confirm that it works and is actually feeding what it's supposed to. (you'll need to know this anyway, if you still plan to replace the panel, unless you're also running new wire to everything) And inspect all the panel connections and wires to identify anything substandard - loose or damaged lugs, damaged wiring, damaged switches and fuseholders, overheated or corroded connections, wires, or devices, etc. Deficiencies are the top priority to fix.

I've helped a few people with their boat electrical systems. I find that some look at the panel "rats nest" and immediately think that a full rewire is the only fix. They have opened the panel usually because there's a specific problem that plagues them. So first of all I ask people to make a list of all the electrical problems they're having, big or small, and then we prioritize them.

I've found that many separate problems often have one or two common causes, and if we can isolate and eliminate those faults... the owner feels less pressure to do something drastic like replace the whole panel.

If you still opt for the new full panel, just have some good books for reference, make a plan, buy a good panel kit, trace and label existing before removing the old panel, and work slowly.

[on preview - agreeing with sainted, basically]

PS - if you can keep a 30' boat in Puerto Vallarta, and spend a month or two a year on it... you are rich

[Tampabayfireman]

I second the wiring numbers. Also, unless you buy the right wire loom, if you do get a short caused fire, the wire loom will cause fire spread.

Second, if you are serious about re doing your electrical system consider using a distribution ground wire, ie one common large ground from stem to stern with connection point along the route. This allows a standard point of ground and eliminate two wires from every application back to the panel. Savings in both voltage lost from smaller gauge wire, and over time reliability of a stable ground

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by dnimigon

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sent Blue Sea an e-mail in regards to setting up for 2 batteries and solar. Never got a reply. Someone in a post said all charging devices goes to the house. Then use the Add A Bat that’s Blue Sea has for second battery. So just need to sort out the whole wiring issue using the 1,2 ALL switch which I’m replacing.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I’m sure there of lots of you have similar setups. Just need a little help setting it all up.

You shouldn't use the Add a Bat switch. Here's why:

AGM Battery Issues and the Blue Seas Dual Circuit Switch (from Maine Sail) "DARN AGM Batteries"
https://forums.sailboatowners.com/in...teries.133773/

"Setting it all up?" What does that mean?

That link is from this topic:

Electrical Systems 101 Electrical Systems 101

It includes details of various wiring diagrams, with and without 1-2-B switches, which, BTW. are the simplest as easiest to use when the AO goes to the house bank.

Here's another one:

https://forums.sailboatowners.com/in.../#post-1432371

Your boat, your choice.

Good luck.

[SFS]

Nicely done Stu. I thought the pictures and logon matched.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by dnimigon

Here’s a pic of our Cat 30 wiring. Still works, kinda of. Want to change the whole setup. Any suggestions. Not rich. So need to be reasonable.

like the solution with the wire for the LPG stove ...

the panel looks a little messy, but not very complicated and easy to fix.

[dnimigon]

So, over the last few years I've looked over different wiring diagrams and read many posts on the subject. It seems to be quite confusing as one says one thing, another says something different. I know you all mean well but I need to have some simple diagram or direction on the way to go.
Here's what I have. Yes wiring is quite messy, plus cables running all over from previous wiring that took place. battery cables is another issue but will sort that. Want to remove most of this stuff. Start fresh so to speak. Will replace what I need to . Probably keep existing panel but replace main switch, all breakers and fuses. Put in terminal blocks as needed etc.
I have 2 batteries, one big 12 volt, the kind you'd find in a cat dozer. Lots of power. I believe 800 cranking amps. second battery is standard deep cycle 12 volt. I think around 450-500 cranking amps.
Was thinking have large bat as house and keep other for start. It is a sailboat. Have onboard bat charger used when plugged in. Also have solar charging when we're out. We leave boat in water year round so solar keeps or supposed to keep batteries up for bilge pump. We only plug into shore power when at slip for extended time. When we leave our boat at slip it relies on the solar for bilge only. We still work and leave our boat sometimes months at a time, especially during the hot summer months. We live in Canada and boat is in PVR.
What i'd like is a little help on proper wiring and setup of what we have, 2 batteries, one onboard bat charger, solar charging. I'll look after what I need for wire sizes etc. Just need a good setup for this. As I said when we arrive at boat after its sat I usually plug in for a few days charging whole system back up, then we use the boat for a few weeks to a few months. We're not live on board people. at east not yet. We have a condo. Just use the boat for outings. But I really want to get this wiring thing sorted out. Every where I look on the boat as far as wiring it makes me say, got to re do this whole thing. It's a 1979 Cat 30 which we've had probably 6 years. Lots of upgrades and repairs over the years, wires ran to nowhere, just cut off at end. Some wiring ran double. Not sure why. Just a complete nightmare. Would rather much start fresh and do it simple and right. That was the reason for the initial post. Trying to figure out the Blue Sea stuff as far as combiners, ACR's, add a battery etc. Where is alternator, solar, 120V bat charger all go to. Do I use combiners, add a battery and so on. Sorry for the big rant. It's just some guys say do this and others say do that. And yes I've read over the Cat34 site info on a lot of this. Confusing to say the least. Surely there's a common ground on all of this. Oh yes, I'm very mechanical and this isn't my first rodeo. They are not my wire nuts on the pic, another issue I know. Everything seems to work, kinda of. But needs a serious overhaul.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by dnimigon

So, over the last few years I've looked over different wiring diagrams and read many posts on the subject. It seems to be quite confusing as one says one thing, another says something different. I know you all mean well but I need to have some simple diagram or direction on the way to go.

...Sorry for the big rant. It's just some guys say do this and others say do that. And yes I've read over the Cat34 site info on a lot of this. Confusing to say the least. Surely there's a common ground on all of this.

I understand your frustration... but:

• You still haven't provided enough info for anyone to provide more detailed guidance
• You claim that the offered solutions are confusing, but you also seem to have rejected at least some of them out of hand... including the suggestions (mine and others) that you may not have anything seriously wrong with the boat wiring, other than it looks messy to you.
• There are recommended practices, there are popular configurations... but the truth is that boats are personal and reflect the manufacturers' choices and applicable standards, and then their various owners' idiosyncracies and preferences. There simply is no common ground, other than observing accepted wiring standards and guidelines, and deriving guidance from the offered opinions, to choose what you want.

So, no, no-one is withholding the secret magic plan from you. There is no one single correct solution.

Simply put, there are two main approaches, if you still feel you need to rewire the boat:

• Put in your time. Buy the books, study all the possible approaches and pitfalls, look at other boats, ask questions, choose your desired configuration, plan it, do it.
• Hire a professional to come look and design a solution, which you can then execute (or hire someone to execute)

I apologize for the rant back, but I've been on both sides of this. Remember that free forum advice is worth exactly what you've paid for it.... but there are usually a few grains in all the chaff.


PS if you are seeking ONE consistent source of good advice, follow this guy - the same MaineSail that Stu Jackson linked to earlier.

[CatNewBee]

just download a power schematics of a recent build smaller boat without fancy remote control stuff, try to understand it and adopt it as best practise to your needs.

Electricity is simple. Current flows from source (battery) over a fuse to a distrubution panel with more smaller fuses, than to the switch palel, then to the consumer appliance plus input. From there the minus kable goes to the ground distribution point, then via a thick cable to the shunt for measuring the current, back to the battery minus pole.

to be able to switch off everything, there are two bif battery disconnect switches in the plus and in the minus cable near the battery. there is one exception - battery chargers. They usually awe wired directly to the plus of the battery with a fuse,.
so charging remains possible, even if plus main switch is off.

Only the minus switch disconnects the chargers (in most installations). Very straight forward...

[shayski]

30 plus year electrician/wiring contractor, it depends on on what your trying to do, do you just want to clean it up a bit and organize it or are you having problems with something and need to pull new wires or maybe change out some equipt. Whatever it is, it's not really brain surgery. It just takes some patience and if you don't understand something, ask! And always air on the side of caution when working with live circuits. Get a multimeter and learn to use it, it will save you a ton of time.

[hellosailor]

I can appreciate the urge to rip it all out and start fresh, but given the time and budget constraints and the limited needs of your systems, I don't think that is needed.

" I have 2 batteries and also solar. On board battery charger when plugged in. would like to have a nice setup."

So presumably you are keeping the same two batteries and the system is sized adequately for them. The solar charger should be going direct to one or both batteries, there are options and configurations for that but none require any work at that panel.

OK, the voltmeter is an analog antique. Easy enough to change it for a digital one, way simpler than replacing the whole panel! Or, putting a separate charge monitor into the eompy space on the panel, or adjacent to it. Or replacing the voltmeter with it.

The rest looks like it just mainly needs some cleanup. Proper connections, which you say you understand. Proper little bits like cable tie downs and using a p-touch label maker, or (pricey) wire labels...that's hard to find and pricey in many places, you'd need them no matter what you do.

I think you'd save time and money by just rewiring it. Maybe do that in one pass, and worry about the voltmeter and updates on a separate pass, break it down to bite-size pieces.

Personally, I've gotten in the religion of using a dab of silicon grease on all connections, it ensures no water or oxidation. And if the connection is something like a screw-down lug? An alternative is to put on a couple of coats of liquid vinyl while it is clean and dry. The screws can't come loose, the connection is sealed, and it peels right off if you do need access.

No way to do clean wiring quickly, it will simply take time to clean it up. Done right it will only have to be done once.

[darylat8750]

PS if you are seeking ONE consistent source of good advice, follow this guy - the same MaineSail that Stu Jackson linked to earlier.
Welcome To MarineHowTo.com Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com

This... Read everything Mainesail has on his web site. It will be time well spent. If someone materially disagrees with his position on something be at least suspect of the other position.

[Cheechako]

Not unusual for sure. The electrons dont know the difference between a birds nest and OCD perfect wire routing. However, many of us just have a need for things to be orderly.
-Use tinned wire only.
-use heat shrink end fittings.
-use a good crimper not one of those cheap ones.
-VERY IMPORTANT: make a plan so that you have wire loops so you can open/shut the door with the panel on it. Many times people dont think enough about this, (with a moving door/panel)they may use heavier wire than necessary, they may secure wires too heavily so they are too rigid. Then the door wont close without forcing and it stresses the fixed ends when the door is moved creating a failure, when you had none with the birds nest!

Run a heavy power cable to a post near the panel, then use small wire from there to each circuit. For instance:
-a 5 or 10 amp breaker only needs 16 gage wire for the 1-2 ft run from cable post to breaker for a 1% voltage drop.
-a 15-20 amp breaker only needs 14 gage wire.
-In 12v it's rare to need over a 10 amp breaker.