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Old 25-09-2017, 04:24   #361
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Re: Wiring In Series (pro vs con)

There is no difference in operation or safety of one 12 volt battery or three 4 volt batteries in series. Unless you cheapen-up on inter connections or lazy-out on maintenance. Electric drive cars need BMS because they use Lithium battery chemistries. Nothing to do with parallel/series connections.
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Old 25-09-2017, 04:30   #362
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Re: Wiring In Series (pro vs con)

I was excited, a few days ago, when this thread reappeared. As I had never seen it before.

The OP was asking about doing the very same thing I’m thinking about. That is installing FireFly’s L-16, 4v batteries in a marine application.
I’ve used L-16 6v batteries in previous boats. But never 4v one. So yes, I have/had some questions.

So I started reading.. and reading… and more reading.

Around page 13, it became very obvious that this thread had become a pissing contest between a few, well respected (with some very serious credentials) folks that could spin facts to support their own arguments.

Unlike the OP, I’m not going to bail on the 4v L-16 system. I still believe that series wired batteries are superior to paralleled ones. If series is so bad, then why does all of the “mission critical” systems that I design/build/maintain solely use series wired cells?.

I have seen far fewer cell problems, especially imbalance and/or dominance issues, with series wired batt’s/cells. Not saying it doesn’t happen. Just less often.
Also, with series wired cell’s/batts, you have fewer connections on each post.
Series, one ring terminal per post.
Parallel, two ring terminals per post.
And as all know, the more connections, the higher the resistance.

But I’m not wanting to debate the merits of either. I’m going with the 4v L-16’s because frankly, three of them fit better into the required space than 4 of the 31’s.

A question was raised, many pages ago, about what to do if a cell goes bad and no replacement is nearby. My solution is to build the battery rack so that it can house both the FireFly L-16 or the Trogan’s L-16 6v AGM (Trogans being bigger). I can have a set of Trogan shipped to any place I’d likely be, in a few days.
So if push comes to shove, I can change to the Trogans until three new FireFlys can arrive.

True, if I’m in the middle of the ocean when a cell goes tit’s up, it would be quite hard to get a replacement. But that is why the start battery is a 210Ah AGM bank. We would have to drop down to essential loads, but we could get to some port in that condition.
But to be honest, we do very little water sailing">blue water sailing. Mostly coastal and near coastal. So the dead bank scenario is not really a big deal for me.

So it comes down to this, over the winter I’ll be removing 8ea Lifeline 6v batt’s. And replace them with 3ea FireFly L-16 4v batt’s. While maintaining the same useful capacity and regain some much needed space.

As MaineSail says, getting the “Dead Lead” out.
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Old 25-09-2017, 05:13   #363
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Re: Wiring In Series (pro vs con)

The Firefly carbon glass mat batteries are high quality and have excellent reviews. I disagree with your argument about parallel battery connections. They are used in many applications where space is not a critical issue, and power requirements cannot be met with series connections. Again, it is quality of interconnections and routine maintenance that makes the difference. The same with series. You will not be disappointed with your Firefly battery.
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Old 25-09-2017, 05:30   #364
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Re: Wiring In Series (pro vs con)

The only proven quality Firefly is the G31, produced in the USA (slowly, currently backordered)

Stay in touch with Bruce Schwab @ OceanPlanet to find out when the US-based team have approved the quality of the new other sizes produced in India. I'm guessing still some / many months away *if* everything goes well. If not, could be a year.

Anyone buying them in the meantime, either bringing them in directly from India or from sellers not part of Bruce's NA distribution network, will likely have problems getting effective warranty service in the event of any problems.
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Old 25-09-2017, 06:37   #365
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Re: Wiring In Series (pro vs con)

Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
The only proven quality Firefly is the G31, produced in the USA (slowly, currently backordered)

Stay in touch with Bruce Schwab @ OceanPlanet to find out when the US-based team have approved the quality of the new other sizes produced in India. I'm guessing still some / many months away *if* everything goes well. If not, could be a year.

Anyone buying them in the meantime, either bringing them in directly from India or from sellers not part of Bruce's NA distribution network, will likely have problems getting effective warranty service in the event of any problems.
Had a long meeting with the production manager of Firefly India last week. They say they can make all the batteries we want, but will take some ramping up and they want prediction of how many we will sell per month... Of course we just want them to fill our backorders (approx. 800 G31's) to start with! No matter what it's going to take a while to catch up, however the info on their mfg facility did look very good, and they have shown the ability to push out some quantity already, for example this sizable solar backup installation in Japan: http://fireflyenergy.com/wp-content/...stallation.pdf

Some L16+ arrived in the last 2 container shipments, however not that many and they were all sold out in a week or so, to BRJ Solutions (Seattle) and Pacific Yacht Systems (Vancouver, BC). So check with them to see if any are left. Coastal Climate Control (MD) has some on order as well that may be filled from the existing stash if testing goes well. We'll have some here in Maine too but not sure how many yet and when.

So, the process of ramping up is going to take some more months, but it looks like it's going to happen. Hopefully by next spring there will actually be stock on the ground at our distributors, instead of 3-4 month long waiting lists....
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Old 25-09-2017, 06:54   #366
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Re: Wiring In Series (pro vs con)

Quote:
Originally Posted by OceanPlanet View Post
Had a long meeting with the production manager of Firefly India last week. They say they can make all the batteries we want, but will take some ramping up and they want prediction of how many we will sell per month... Of course we just want them to fill our backorders (approx. 800 G31's) to start with! No matter what it's going to take a while to catch up, however the info on their mfg facility did look very good, and they have shown the ability to push out some quantity already, for example this sizable solar backup installation in Japan: http://fireflyenergy.com/wp-content/...stallation.pdf

Some L16+ arrived in the last 2 container shipments, however not that many and they were all sold out in a week or so, to BRJ Solutions (Seattle) and Pacific Yacht Systems (Vancouver, BC). So check with them to see if any are left. Coastal Climate Control (MD) has some on order as well that may be filled from the existing stash if testing goes well. We'll have some here in Maine too but not sure how many yet and when.

So, the process of ramping up is going to take some more months, but it looks like it's going to happen. Hopefully by next spring there will actually be stock on the ground at our distributors, instead of 3-4 month long waiting lists....

Bruce,

It is nice to see the imbalance issues of series-string lead acid batteries finally being addressed by Firefly, and Victron as well..

We have known about this for eons, and with flooded batteries relied on EQ cycles for corrections, but this can't be done with most VRLA batteries.

One of the worst series imbalances I've measured was that bank on Ceramco NZ where some of the 6V batteries had voltage variances as wide as 0.9V.
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Old 25-09-2017, 15:29   #367
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Re: Wiring In Series (pro vs con)

Bruce, thanks for the update, and for being overall so transparent about this transition period for Firefly.

Obviously your and your partners' exemplary warranty service is there, but have you guys had a chance to live test the India-made units at all extensively? Or can you tell us any QA process details to reassure those fearful of the transition?
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Old 25-09-2017, 15:38   #368
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Re: Wiring In Series (pro vs con)

Separately from the Firefly issues, not just Bruce, sorry for so many Qs:

If one needs large capacity, but doesn't want to deal with batts weighing hundreds each,

Would you recommend going to 8, 10, 12 paralleled 12V batts, rather than 6V or 2V combined parallel / series ?

Is there objective validity to the old "don't exceed 3-4 parallel" rule of thumb?

Finally, are there easy KISS solutions to fighting these series imbalance issues?

Following proper intra-wiring including Gibbo's examples on the SmartGauge site as a given.

Short of full-time per-cell monitoring of course.

Can you point to balancing HowTo for lead? I've seen both bottom- and top- versions for LFP, would it be similar to either?

Any feedback on using the split-bank monitor feature of the 702-BMV?
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Old 25-09-2017, 17:06   #369
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Re: Wiring In Series (pro vs con)

Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
Bruce, thanks for the update, and for being overall so transparent about this transition period for Firefly.

Obviously your and your partners' exemplary warranty service is there, but have you guys had a chance to live test the India-made units at all extensively? Or can you tell us any QA process details to reassure those fearful of the transition?
Good questions. When the mfg moved to India we were all really sweating. When the first container arrived Firefly Peoria had moved to a new location and didn't have their testing machines up & running yet. So they pulled a random selection and sent to us to test. We've built a testing bench similar to Maine Sail's where we can do automatic cycling and capacity testing.

All of the samples had been a couple months in shipping so not charged for even longer. All had good Ocv (around 12.7, IIRC), and then we ran an initial charge/discharge capacity test on each....charged to 14.4v until the current <1A, then discharge @ either 10hr or 20hr rated to 10.5v and how many Ah's we could get out of them.

We were pleasantly surprised that the lowest of the bunch was 104Ah on it's first cycle. So we pulled that one aside and did several full charge/discharge cycles...each test returned more Ah's and after 4 or 5 it was up to 116.9Ah @ 20hr rate, which exceeded the 116Ah rating. We sold all them to eagerly waiting customers.

Now Peoria is set up for testing and the crew there are quite diligent...they must be, as the process seems to be quite slow. And, we have a feeling that they are rather miffed that they aren't making them themselves anymore, so they're being quite picky (fine with me). We are trying to get India to give them more equipment speed things up. Fingers crossed, however someday if they keep testing well with a very low % of duds, then could ship them without testing. But we don't dare to do that yet.
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Old 25-09-2017, 17:37   #370
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Re: Wiring In Series (pro vs con)

Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
Separately from the Firefly issues, not just Bruce, sorry for so many Qs:

If one needs large capacity, but doesn't want to deal with batts weighing hundreds each,

Would you recommend going to 8, 10, 12 paralleled 12V batts, rather than 6V or 2V combined parallel / series ?

Is there objective validity to the old "don't exceed 3-4 parallel" rule of thumb?

Finally, are there easy KISS solutions to fighting these series imbalance issues?

Following proper intra-wiring including Gibbo's examples on the SmartGauge site as a given.

Short of full-time per-cell monitoring of course.

Can you point to balancing HowTo for lead? I've seen both bottom- and top- versions for LFP, would it be similar to either?

Any feedback on using the split-bank monitor feature of the 702-BMV?
Some tough decisions...

For larger banks, eventually the 2v/4v L16+ would make more sense, however the balancing question is valid. Obviously most folks simply don't worry about it, however we have seen big 2V cells get out of balance on large yacht systems. We've been trying to get some of the Firefly "BEMS" balancers to test out but don't have any yet.

In the meantime, with the 12V G31's in parallel/series for 24V systems we've been using the Victron VBB units which do simple top balancing. Nothing special, but better than nothing. With the FF overcharging is worse than undercharging, so top balancing works fine.
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Old 25-09-2017, 19:20   #371
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Re: Wiring In Series (pro vs con)

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Now Peoria is set up for testing and the crew there are quite diligent...they must be, as the process seems to be quite slow. And, we have a feeling that they are rather miffed that they aren't making them themselves anymore, so they're being quite picky (fine with me). We are trying to get India to give them more equipment speed things up. Fingers crossed, however someday if they keep testing well with a very low % of duds, then could ship them without testing. But we don't dare to do that yet.
Excellent report, very reassuring.

So the multiple 20-hour load testing, you go all the way down to 10.5V as standard, each time?

That's a pretty rigorous "break-in", usually you'd just do that once, right?

and then just keep current charge/draw rates below say .2C for a while? I've seen 50 cycles.

Was curious if the FLA protocol would be any different for AGM.
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Old 25-09-2017, 19:24   #372
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Re: Wiring In Series (pro vs con)

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Originally Posted by OceanPlanet View Post
In the meantime, with the 12V G31's in parallel/series for 24V systems we've been using the Victron VBB units which do simple top balancing. Nothing special, but better than nothing. With the FF overcharging is worse than undercharging, so top balancing works fine.
But say sticking with 12V systems not higher, how many 12V "units" in parallel would be OK?

Getting away from Firefly, say strings of 6V or 2V, or 12V batts, isn't there something to the "don't go past 3-4 paralleled" no matter what is underlying?
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Old 26-09-2017, 05:07   #373
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Re: Wiring In Series (pro vs con)

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But say sticking with 12V systems not higher, how many 12V "units" in parallel would be OK?

Getting away from Firefly, say strings of 6V or 2V, or 12V batts, isn't there something to the "don't go past 3-4 paralleled" no matter what is underlying?

Back in the early 90's, Exide (I think it was Exide) conducted a series of test pertaining to capacity imbalance with parallel strings of batteries/cells.

The jest of the test data is that ALL parallel batteries/cells WILL become imbalance over time.
No way to reasonably control (match) internal and external resistances. And once the resistances of the parallel circuits start to differ, Ohm's law takes over.

The only "X" factor was that the time frame of it happening was decreased with each additional parallel path.

On my current system of 8ea 6v batt's, one set of series wired 6v batts are around 0.5v lower than the other 3 sets. The odd thing is that this set, is the set nearest to the positive power cable.
So having the pos. cable on one end of the bank and the neg. cable on the other end, seemed to have no effect on bank balance.
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Old 26-09-2017, 05:11   #374
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Re: Wiring In Series (pro vs con)

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The only proven quality Firefly is the G31, produced in the USA (slowly, currently backordered)

Stay in touch with Bruce Schwab @ OceanPlanet to find out when the US-based team have approved the quality of the new other sizes produced in India. I'm guessing still some / many months away *if* everything goes well. If not, could be a year.

Anyone buying them in the meantime, either bringing them in directly from India or from sellers not part of Bruce's NA distribution network, will likely have problems getting effective warranty service in the event of any problems.
I sent the following to Firefly Peoria a few days ago.

----------
Dear Sirs,
When will the L-16 4v Carbon Foam batteries be available?

Second Question, Are these made in the Peoria plant?
If not, how will warranty issues be resolved?

Thanks for your time.


-----------

Here is their responce:

Thanks for your email. The L-16 4V batteries are readily available in India. To answer your second question, I would like to inform you that these batteries are manufactured in India and not Peoria. Be rest assured for the warranty concerns, as it will be resolved from Peoria.

Please feel free to contact us should you have any questions.

Regards,
Team Firefly
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Old 26-09-2017, 06:33   #375
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Re: Wiring In Series (pro vs con)

Quote:
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Excellent report, very reassuring.

So the multiple 20-hour load testing, you go all the way down to 10.5V as standard, each time?

That's a pretty rigorous "break-in", usually you'd just do that once, right?

and then just keep current charge/draw rates below say .2C for a while? I've seen 50 cycles.

Was curious if the FLA protocol would be any different for AGM.
It's no problem to discharge 100% with the Firefly; probably not 100 times just for fun, however the full charge/discharge cycles actually improves their capacity for subsequent use.

We have been recharging @ about .5C, or 60A on the 116Ah G31's. They like it. Just use temp compensation to be sure you don't overdue it if the ambient temps are high.
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