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Old 05-04-2010, 23:04   #16
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Hellosailor - whew! ... I would guess you are looking for a few good debates ... and with me that would be about electrical engineering methods. We can hash out methods and flash credentials in another place if you would like.

I was bothered by your response and how you made your 'opinion' appear as the fact and my 'opinion' false; which was not accurate or factual at all. Your method of taking things out of context was also wrong . Definately 'not nice'!

Jmolan -
Here is a link to a basic understanding of LED's:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-emitting_diode

When you are ready to build your electrical plan have someone look it over for safety and feasability.

The book I recommended is a good one. The idea about the batteries and type of wire were just to give you an idea of how lightweight and easy to build an LED system can be.

I built my own LED lighting system in my boat and I could get nice lighting (not as bright as flood lights or ultra high beam flashlights) enough to read by with out straining my eyes and not using a lot of power. I bought a kit from this site and engineered my own personal system: (and it works great!)

TheLEDLight.com is everything LED. Find loose LEDs, LED Flexible Ribbon, LED Modules, LED light bars,LED controls, LED fixtures, LED light bulbs, LED strips, UV LED flashlights .

I keep a set of Eveready rechargeables plugged into my laptops USB port. They are fully charged in about an hour, and will hold their charge for months. I use them in my Garmin Handheld, flashlights, and other gadgets. They work great! Plus they sell them everywhere... and are inexpensive.

I hope you will post the results of your actions here, I am interested in what solution you come up with.

Cheers!
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Old 06-04-2010, 07:31   #17
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Silverbow, I just call 'em as I see 'em, no insult intended. Telco premises wiring can work for many things, and yes I have used chewing gum and baling wire to "get home" many times. But telco wiring just isn't right for a boat. That's not simply my opinion, pretty much every source you can find says to use stranded tinner wire and the telco expects premises wiring to be solidly stapled to a solid baseboard molding and never "vibrated". Western Electric designed (overdesigned) most of their products and procedures for specific purposes. Telco premises wiring, drop wiring, all are made for specific purposes and none are intended for use on a boat.

That's not a matter of opinion but the recommendation of the makers, the published experts, and the industry specs like ABYC specs for boat wiring or even SAE specs for cars. Solid wire is wrong for this purpose according to all of them. Can you get away with it? Sure. Reliably? Cost effectively? Long term? That's something else again.

Ditto for the AA cells. I've spoken to the folks at Eveready and their rechargable AA cells are a moving target. That is, different chemistry ad construction and capacity from time to time, so "those" cells are really many products. The ones I used, like many or even most of them on the market, are typically spec'd and expected by the sellers to lose some 30-50% of stored charge in 4 weeks or less. I've had premium Japanese cells (Panasonic) go six months and still hold better than a 50% charge, but those also cost more than 4x the typical product with 1/3 less capacity to start with.

It is't my opinion that the capacity is typically 2000mAH, that's again a published seller/maker spec. You'll find them up to 3000 or 3200mAH these days, sure, but alkalines usually are around 1600mAH and rechargeables 2000-2500. Assuming a fresh charge and all. And as the AH rating goes up--the cost goes up, the number of cycles usually goes way down, and the susceptibility to heat damage during charging goes way up. According to the folks who make them, those are the rasons why they stillmake conventional cells and still supply *600mAH* industrial cells for use in cordless phones, handheld radios, and other long-term-use devices.

Eveready, GE, Varta, Saft, Panasonic, Sanyo, all sing the same song. We can just ignore the alleged specs on no-name Chinese junk batteries, they're often DOA or fail in under a year anyway. Their specs are fantasies, their makers farcial.

Don't need to compare creds, I'm just citing the published specs from the folks who buildand sell this stuff. Their creds probably beat both of ours combined. At least, I would hope so. Can you run a string of LEDs on a telco wire? Sure. I'd call that "el cheapo disposable boat" though, not a durable and proper long-term installation. And for el cheapo qiuck and simple, I'd rather buy the stick-up lights. With batteries that have a 2-year shelf life, instead of 30-60 days. (The "Targus" branded batteries, abusing the name of the unrelated "Targus" computer equipment company, are dead at 30 days on the shelf. Made in China.)
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Old 06-04-2010, 07:46   #18
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... What a lot of people don't realize, is their boats are over wired... for what they need. But to fully explain this would take a lot of explaining...
Indeed it would (being false).
Although Hellosailor & I butt heads more often than not, I believe heís absolutely on the money, in this debate.
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Old 06-04-2010, 08:05   #19
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If you really want to keep the weight down, just use a LED headlamp. It will provide light where ever you want it.

Personally, I agree that to wire a few lights with the minimum wire needed offers a nice convenience at very little weight.

I also think your real weight is likely to be in the form of fuel, water, sewage and provisions.
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Old 06-04-2010, 09:23   #20
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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Silverbow, I just call 'em as I see 'em, no insult intended. Telco premises wiring can work for many things, and yes I have used chewing gum and baling wire to "get home" many times. But telco wiring just isn't right for a boat. That's not simply my opinion, pretty much every source you can find says to use stranded tinner wire and the telco expects premises wiring to be solidly stapled to a solid baseboard molding and never "vibrated". Western Electric designed (overdesigned) most of their products and procedures for specific purposes. Telco premises wiring, drop wiring, all are made for specific purposes and none are intended for use on a boat.

That's not a matter of opinion but the recommendation of the makers, the published experts, and the industry specs like ABYC specs for boat wiring or even SAE specs for cars. Solid wire is wrong for this purpose according to all of them. Can you get away with it? Sure. Reliably? Cost effectively? Long term? That's something else again.

Ditto for the AA cells. I've spoken to the folks at Eveready and their rechargable AA cells are a moving target. That is, different chemistry ad construction and capacity from time to time, so "those" cells are really many products. The ones I used, like many or even most of them on the market, are typically spec'd and expected by the sellers to lose some 30-50% of stored charge in 4 weeks or less. I've had premium Japanese cells (Panasonic) go six months and still hold better than a 50% charge, but those also cost more than 4x the typical product with 1/3 less capacity to start with.

It is't my opinion that the capacity is typically 2000mAH, that's again a published seller/maker spec. You'll find them up to 3000 or 3200mAH these days, sure, but alkalines usually are around 1600mAH and rechargeables 2000-2500. Assuming a fresh charge and all. And as the AH rating goes up--the cost goes up, the number of cycles usually goes way down, and the susceptibility to heat damage during charging goes way up. According to the folks who make them, those are the rasons why they stillmake conventional cells and still supply *600mAH* industrial cells for use in cordless phones, handheld radios, and other long-term-use devices.

Eveready, GE, Varta, Saft, Panasonic, Sanyo, all sing the same song. We can just ignore the alleged specs on no-name Chinese junk batteries, they're often DOA or fail in under a year anyway. Their specs are fantasies, their makers farcial.

Don't need to compare creds, I'm just citing the published specs from the folks who buildand sell this stuff. Their creds probably beat both of ours combined. At least, I would hope so. Can you run a string of LEDs on a telco wire? Sure. I'd call that "el cheapo disposable boat" though, not a durable and proper long-term installation. And for el cheapo qiuck and simple, I'd rather buy the stick-up lights. With batteries that have a 2-year shelf life, instead of 30-60 days. (The "Targus" branded batteries, abusing the name of the unrelated "Targus" computer equipment company, are dead at 30 days on the shelf. Made in China.)
Agree with you about the wiring, but not about the batteries, as someone already recomended give the Sanyo ENELOOP batteries a try. I have some a few years old now still measure on specification at 2000mhr they are OK for 6 months in the cupboard without recharging.
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Old 06-04-2010, 09:57   #21
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The Sanyo ENELOOP batteries are very different from the usual rechargeable AA cell. First of all they are from a prime Japanese manufacturer, second they are a new technology. They aren't what you'll be handed in the local 7-11, Rat Shack, or WalMart when you walk in and ask to buy AA cells.

At 2000mAH with 85% capacity after a year in storage, Eneloop AA's would be great. But they're radically different from the run of the mill AA. I might just pick up a couple of packs if I could find them locally, they're competitively priced for good batteries.
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Old 06-04-2010, 10:05   #22
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If you REALLY want to save weight, only go sailing in the daytime. No wires, lights etc.
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Old 06-04-2010, 19:53   #23
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HelloSailor is NOT right. I have looked this up, spoke to fellow Electrical Engineers, just to make sure I am not in the wrong here.

Your snide remarks only lesson the intellectual value of your comments. Again, NOT NICE!

Once I read your comment, I, in Engineer fashion, wasted my entire day writing a dissertation with extended references in BOOKS I have read and studied, to include Internet links, and queried colleagues and professors. I produced this beautiful paper that included diagrams and practical uses... a document that any true to life Electronics Nerd would love ... Then I remembered my communication 101 classes. “Know your audience” ... and your presentation medium (who would read a boring 10 page document posted to a forum?" ... ... I can tell you with an entire Electrical Engineering staff, Masters Degree, and 20 years of experience... you are wrong! And for every claim you make, I will refute you in the same manner you claim expertise... with the internet = say cheese!


Stranded wire IS NOT good for LED's.
ANY wire left out to the sea air will corrode.
There is no BETTER one wire to resist Corrosive Sea Air.
How well a wire is insulated is what makes difference when dealing with corrosion. Wire Padded behind interior wall strata is a pretty good insulation from the corrosive environment of the sea.

Stranded wire is used for one purpose over solid core and this is its ability to withstand lots of bending. In a boat or car, once the wire is laid out, and placed neatly into its location behind a wall... it will lie just fine ... last longer than stranded wire, and prolong the life of electronic components.

You need to read this... [by no means do I hold Wikipedia as the ultimate factual website]. This link definitely debunks HelloSailor on wire. Good strong researchable references are provided at the bottom of this link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire#Solid_versus_stranded

I used my SAE login to research your reference to Standards for wiring electronic components, Wire Standard for Light Emitting Diodes, running power over 24AWG wire, any solid core standards, etc… [I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I have no problem admitting when I am wrong…] Currently on the SAE website there are no standards, seminars, or articles backing your claims. I did send an email asking for help in finding said documents… if they come back with something I will post it… just to let you know, this is costing me money… the SAE charges for everything… as I am sure you know. As of now there is nothing supporting your claims!

I used my IEEE login to find any standards or articles for powering LED's or running wire from a DC source to electrical components. There are none! Not even a mention on safety. There are articles however that go to great length to ensure people understand the delicate nature of diodes… and how Solid Core wires are used to provide the least amount of variance in electronics applications.

NOTE: I tried to post a link from the IEEE but the link requires authentication. Right clicking, copying and pasting is blocked as well. I am still looking for an RFI, those are postable.

Here are some links that talk about running a load on 24AWG (or as you would call it: Telco Wire…):
In this link they talk about Power over Ethernet… putting a load on 24AWG to power electronics:
http://www.interfacebus.com/Power_Over_Ethernet.html

On the bottom of this page are some nice ‘s c i e n t i f i c’ links that describe running Power/Load on 24AWG wire to power other applications like: … LED circuits:
http://www.linear.com/

I will see if I can get an ABCY login and speak with engineers there who are setting standards.

Any stranded wire standards out there are based on what Engineers refer to as: "Monkey Use". Standards for everyday people are based on how well the product will stand up to the manipulation by HUMANS. These are Cover Your Assets standards... but not necessarily technical standards. These are also 'Margin Bottom Line' standards that get the product to market, but do not guarantee any kind of longevity of the product. "I have never seen a solid core wire used to power a car stereo!" But you do see it to power all the homes built in America (10AWG and 12AWG). Does anyone know why this is and why we don't use stranded cable in homes? I do... but I'll let Hello Sailor tell us... =) Why don't we use this in cars and boats? =)

There are no technical standards that support your 'blurts'.

As far as 'speaking to Ever Ready'. Please share your source. I think Hello Sailor, on this topic of electricity is being an Internet Engineer.

You are the classic Edison trying to debunk the Exceptionally Intelligent Tesla! And you will go to ANY means to disprove his principles... to include 'not telling the truth'.

And I am going to call your replies as the entire Electrical Engineering, SAE, and IEEE world would see them... and I will use your words: “NAH!”

Next up: Debunking HelloSailors battery claims...
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Old 06-04-2010, 20:28   #24
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On batteries... I did a google search and I have emailed all these companys your blurt about batteries: We will see what comes back.

Companies producing Battery Control ICs, listed under Analog Mixed Signal
UPS product manufacturers are listed under OEM / Computers / UPS
ABSL Power Solutions {Defense, Military, Aerospace, Medical, Telcom Batteries}

AGM Batteries Ltd {Lithium-ion cells}

Alpha {Standby Power Systems}

Arotech Corporation {Defense, Military, Law enforcement Batteries}

BYD Company Limited {Li-ion, Ni-MH, Ni-Cd batteries}

Cymbet Corporation {Thin Film Battery Manufacturer}

Duracell {Alkaline/Lithium Manganese Dioxide-Zinc Air-Silver Oxide-Nickel Metal Hydride}

EEMB Co., Ltd. {lithium, alkaline - lithium, nickel}

Energizer Power Systems "Eveready Battery Company, Inc." {Alkaline-Rechargeable Battery Manufacturer}

EnerSys {Battery Manufacturer}

E-One Moli Energy (Canada) Limited {Cylindrical Cells, Prismatic Cells, SMBus Standard Batteries; Battery Manufacturer}

eVionyx {Battery Manufacturer}

GAIA {lithium ion polymer}

GlobTek, Inc. {Lead Acid/Lithium-ion Polimer/Lithium-ion Prismatic/Cylinder/Ni-Cd / Ni-MH cells}

GNB Industrial Power {Network Power and Motive Power markets}
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Old 06-04-2010, 20:55   #25
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"Stranded wire IS NOT good for LED's. "
And I never said it was good for LEDs. I said it was the only correct way to go for BOATS and VEHICLES subject to vibration. Feel free to "debunk" me, but then you'll still have the interesting question of why pretty much all the published authors and standards for MOVING VEHICLES still call for stranded wire, and tinned stranded wire in salt air environments.
By all means, make it personal. That'll leave "you against the world" when it comes to the practices and materials I'm recommending.

You're about equally out of context when you quote links to LiOn batteries to prove I'm wrong about how AA rechargeables are equally unsuitable for some purposes. You won't find LiOn AA cells available at the local store yet, at all. And you can't recharge them with conventional chargers, either.

You sure you're an engineer? The temper tantrum and off-focus reply say otherwise. Not that I care who or what you are, your premises are contrary to pretty much all the published sources, and folks can research them and make their own choices. You won't find any marine instrument makers supplying solid copper wire on their equipment, they all supply fully tinned stranded wire for instrument systems. ("All" meaning the reputable brands names, I'm sure someone in China is supplying untinned wire but it won't come from the name brands that dominate the market.)

By all means, dispute the reality of what's out there and has been found to work, and not work, on the water.
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Old 06-04-2010, 22:11   #26
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Hellosailor - All good.

Please do not respond to anymore of my posts when you see them.
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Old 06-04-2010, 22:22   #27
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Here is something that might be able to be configured for marine use: and is wireless and battery less: may take some tweaking but for the imaginative inventor... who knows =)

Alpine Stainless Steel Solar LED Path Light - Lighting: Solar Lighting#
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Old 06-04-2010, 22:43   #28
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Jmolan - I apologize for pirating your thread... lesson learned.

... here is another - read the Amazon reviews.

Amazon.com: Malibu 3 Pack Solar Landscape Plastic Flood Light Set with Remote Panel, Textured Black #LZ413: Home Improvement
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Old 07-04-2010, 04:18   #29
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... Please do not respond to anymore of my posts when you see them.
Post no errors, and others may not* feel the need to correct you.

* Well some may; but, being right, you'll have the opportunity to bask in your superiority.
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Old 07-04-2010, 05:02   #30
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STRANDED WIRE shall be used on boats, in North America, not smaller than #16 AWG (18 AWG by exception).

Excerpted from ABYCís* Section 16, System Wiring:
*American Boat & Yacht Council

Page 29
11.16.1.1.2. Conductors shall be at least 16 AWG.

Page 29
11.16.1.2.2. The construction of insulated cables and conductors shall conform with the requirements of:
11.16.1.2.2.1. UL 1426*, Cables for Boats,

Page 30
11.16.1.2.5. Conductors and flexible cords shall be stranded copper according to TABLE XII.

UL 1426 ➥ ul-1426.4

CFR 33 ➥ 1999 CFR Title 33, Volume 2

183.435 Conductors in circuits of 50 volts or more*.
(*18.430 Conductors in circuits of less than 50 volts, refers the reader to 435)
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...1999&TYPE=TEXT

Excerpted from the ISOís 10133.2000(E)

7.1 Electrical distribution shall use insulated stranded-copper conductors.
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