Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 24-11-2007, 21:40   #16
Senior Cruiser
 
delmarrey's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Now in Blaine, WA
Boat: Modified Choate 40
Posts: 10,735
Images: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidLandOne View Post
I personally think the need for tinned DC wiring is over rated. Its absolute need should be driven more by location, how dry the boat is and budget rather than being the unbreakable rule many proclaim on forums.
Maybe Southern Calif.

Have you ever been to the South Pacific and other tropical parts of the world. There is no such thing as a dry boat, unless it's a mega yacht running the aircon all the time.

On certain days in Nov. to Feb. I've seen sweet bead up on the inside walls of houses 100 miles inland in the Philippines.

Besides, the ABYC recommends tinned wire, and insurance companies follow the ABYC for survey's.
__________________

__________________
Faithful are the Wounds of a Friend, but the Kisses of the Enemy are Deceitful! ........
A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves!

Unprepared boaters, end up as floatsum!.......
delmarrey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2007, 00:18   #17
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,866
Images: 69
Every bilge pump and float switch I ever bought had tinned wire. In fact as far as I can recall, every single piece of marine electrical equipment I ever bought has had. Also, even though behind the switch panel might be dry, the black stuff gets from one end of the wire to the other.

If you're only going to own boats less than a few years old, you might not have any problems with just copper wiring, but someone further down the track is sure to.

The tinned wire does cost more, but the difference is pretty insignificant compared to the cost of a boat. (But it does pay to shop around - some places were asking THREE TIMES the price I paid for the exact same wire!)
__________________

44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2007, 00:47   #18
Senior Cruiser
 
Lancerbye's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ladysmith,BC, Vancouver Island , Canada
Boat: Lancer 44 Motorsailer
Posts: 1,760
Images: 32
It's possible to get away with other than tinned wire, however if your insurance company requires ABYC recommended wiring and your boat burns up as a result of an electrical fire (common) you will be possibly having a hard time getting your claim adjusted. Just isn't worth the hassle not too.
__________________
The basis of accomplishment is in never quitting
Mengzi Meng-tse
Lancerbye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2007, 01:39   #19
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Colombo
Posts: 1,059
Quote:
Originally Posted by delmarrey View Post
Have you ever been to the South Pacific...
- Errrr, I live in the South Pacific .

- To those claiming that ABYC claims or recommends tinned wire could they refer me to the exact clause in ABYC AC and DC Electrical Systems on Boats CE-11 because it does not seem to be mentioned in my copy (2003 version). CE-11 does make one reference to compliance with UL1426 Cables for Boats of which I don't have a copy but cable manufacturers claim compliance with that for their Bare Copper Marine Primary Wire for general circuit wiring and I suspect they are correct in that claim.

- To 44'cruisingcat's In fact as far as I can recall, every single piece of marine electrical equipment I ever bought has had (tinned wire) I will just give one common example, there are plenty more - have a look at the power cable supplied for many marine radios (including at least many Icoms), a primary item of safety equipment.

Many seem to have ignored my qualification of Its (tinned wire) absolute need should be driven more by location, how dry the boat is and budget... and rushed to the keyboard to debunk my post. If one has a wet boat then tinned is probably wise and I said nothing different, but it will not help one jot all the many other problems one will have from operating a wet boat (with soft furnishings, electrical equipment such as radios, radars, computers, inverters, engine electrics, switches, etc, the internal wiring of which is mostly (always?) never tinned, etc, etc). So my suggestion is to work towards having a dry boat.
MidLandOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2007, 02:48   #20
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 32,203
Images: 240
As far as I know, MidLandOne is correct:

No authority (I know of) requires the use of tinned wire on boats.
Nor am I aware of any competent “expert” that doesn’t highly recommend tinned wire on boats.

When I made my living as a marine electrician (last century), few if any manufacturers offered Bilge Pumps & Float Switches with (adequately sized) tinned wire. Their bad.

A
BYC Section E-11:
AC and DC ELECTRICAL SYSTEMS ON BOATS
Goto: https://www.abyc.com/committees/.%5CE-11.pdf

Common Marine Wire and Boat Cable Approvals:

Underwriters Laboratories Inc.
Cables for boats, UL1426 (BC-5W2), 105̊C 600 Volts

United States Coast Guard
CFR Title 46, Subchapter T Under 50 Volts;
183.05-45; 50 Volts and over; 183.10-20

UL 1426 is a commonly seen marine specification for electrical cables. Marine wire that has been investigated by the Underwriters Laboratories will meet the requirements of UL 1426. UL 1426 is the numerical standard referenced in UL's BDFX reference for boat cable*. The (BDFX) Boat Cable guide reads, "Boat cable is rated 600 V or less, 60 C or 75 C wet, 60 C to 200 C in dry locations and, for cable so marked*, 60 C and lower temperatures where exposed to oil. The cable employs stranded copper conductors in a size range of 18 to 4/0 AWG inclusive for multi-conductors, 16 to 4/0 AWG inclusive for single conductors."

Marine wire, boat cable, and marine primary wire that meet UL 1426 approval will be marked accordingly. The markings you should search for on a UL 1426 approved wire will be "UL 1426," "Boat Cable," or "BC5-W2." The UL requires the marking to be printed on the electrical cable.

UL 1426 approved electrical cable may be used on marine pleasure craft and is widely accepted for marine cable installed in recreational boats. Many US built boats have cables that comply with the standard.

BC-5W2 is another marine specification. It is a heat rating designation on UL 1426 (105 C in a dry environment, 75 C in a wet environment). The term "boat cable" may sometimes be a specific term used in certain cases to indicate the BC-5W2 approved wire. BC-5W2 is suitable for use on boats and non-commercial marine vessels.

* UL1426 requires that the following information be surface marked on a single conductor cable and, where noted, on the jacket of a multiple conductor cable:
1. The name of the cable manufacturer or any marking by which the organisation responsible for the cable can be identified.
2. The AWG size of the conductor.
3. The Voltage rating of the cable.
4. Temperature rating code. ‘Oil Resistant I’ is appropriate for cable that complies with the requirements for oil resistance.
5. The temperature rating as follows: 105̊C dry 75̊C wet or BC-5W2. Boat cable for
use covered by the National Electric Code must use the BC-5W2 form of temperature
marking.

* UL Wire Marking Guide
http://www-group.slac.stanford.edu/essg/pdf/mgwire.pdf
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2007, 21:17   #21
Senior Cruiser
 
delmarrey's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Now in Blaine, WA
Boat: Modified Choate 40
Posts: 10,735
Images: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidLandOne View Post
- Errrr, I live in the South Pacific .
When registering, this is why it helps to fill out the personal profile a little with at least a general location and type of vessel.

Quote:
- To those claiming that ABYC claims or recommends tinned wire could they refer me to the exact clause in ABYC AC and DC Electrical Systems on Boats CE-11 because it does not seem to be mentioned in my copy (2003 version).
I guess a mis-read was the error. The words "required, approved or comply" could be mis-interpreted. My apologies

Quote:
Marine wire, boat cable, and marine primary wire that meet UL 1426 approval will be marked accordingly. The markings you should search for on a UL 1426 approved wire will be "UL 1426," "Boat Cable," or "BC5-W2." The UL requires the marking to be printed on the electrical cable.

UL 1426 approved electrical cable may be used on marine pleasure craft and is widely accepted for marine cable installed in recreational boats. Many US built boats have cables that comply with the standard.
But it certainly is suggestive.
__________________
Faithful are the Wounds of a Friend, but the Kisses of the Enemy are Deceitful! ........
A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves!

Unprepared boaters, end up as floatsum!.......
delmarrey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-11-2007, 01:32   #22
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Colombo
Posts: 1,059
Quote:
Originally Posted by delmarrey View Post
But it certainly is suggestive.
If I understand your comment correctly then I should mention that UL1426 covers both tinned and plain copper cabling of various types (so not just tinned) and as far as I know makes no recommendation as to which should be used where.

It is a cable manufacturing standard targeted at the likes of voltage and temperature ratings, not the boat design/build code/rule matters setting out as to where the cable is to be used in boats.

The where it is to be used bit is in ABYC CE-11 which while it sets out cable requirements for various services/areas in the boat insofar as temperature, voltage, etc is concerned, it gives no guidance nor makes any comment of any sort at all as to the use of tinned cable. It does require all cable to be to UL1426 but as untinned cable is covered by UL1426 that requirement is not guidance nor a suggestion that tinned should be used.
MidLandOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-11-2007, 03:38   #23
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 32,203
Images: 240
As I previously indicated, MidlandOne is technically correct - no organization (I’m aware of) requires tinned copper conductors, but every authority recommends it’s use on boats.

When exposed to salt air or moist environments, tinned wire resists corrosion, whereas un-tinned wire does not.
The only disadvantage to tinned wire is a slightly higher initial cost (as much as 30% premium).

Excerpted from:
Choosing Cables and Terminals for Marine Service
by Don Casey

“ It makes no sense to install high-quality, marine-rated electrical and electronic equipment on boats without at the same time using high quality, marine-rated cables and terminals to power the equipment. In the marine environment, "high-quality, marine-rated" is determined by the following:
* Tinned conductors, in which every strand of a cable is individually tinned to minimize corrosion.
* Multi-stranded conductors, which use what is known as Type 3 stranding to maximize flexibility and minimize the potential for work hardening and fracture.
* Heavy-duty, moisture- and oil-resistant, high-heat rated PVC insulation.
* Tin-plated, annealed copper terminals with a rugged nylon insulator designed to be double crimped so as to relieve vibration-induced stresses at the crimp;.
* Heavy-wall, glue-lined, heat-shrink tubing to seal connectors against salt intrusion."
Goto: http://www.boatus.com/boattech/cable.htm

See also:
ELECTRICAL TESTING RESULTS - SUMMARY OF TESTING CRIMP SPLICES
by Jerry Powlas
, Technical Editor “Good Old Boat” Magazine
Goto: Good Old Boat: Testing Crimp Splices
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-11-2007, 15:34   #24
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Colombo
Posts: 1,059
Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
...but every authority recommends it’s use on boats.
And on that (and most other things ) I am in complete agreement with GordMay.

I think if those that interpret my suggesting that tinned is not mandatory or in some instances not necessary were to read my posts carefully, rather than regarding them as a threat to inviolable beliefs that they hold, they will see that is so.

But a good installation will use good sense in the choice of cable to suit the situation and the cable's availability, rather than blindly following inviolable edicts. And in some instances untinned may even be the best choice and I gave, from my opinion, the example of coaxial transmission line for radios (and all our own is untinned).

Another example where the best cable may be untinned, or at least much more readily obtained, is large x-section cables to high output alternators where fatigue from movement and vibration is a common failure (and an arcing risk, especially if the engine is not an isolated ground one).

And if, for example a ventilated case inverter comes fitted with untinned tails on the DC side of sufficient length to reach the DC isolator switch (as ours did) why go to the trouble of sourcing tinned cable to replace them when, if the untinned cable is going to have a problem through dampness, the inverter itself will suffer far more. The need is to dry the boat, not the use of tinned cable which will not fix the root problem.

In the case of boat cabling tinned is sensible most of the time and is sufficient all of the time. Therefore if one does not have the background to make informed choice then always use tinned - I am only suggesting that one should not fret over it though if one finds (as another poster finds) that it is not always possible to do so.

Oh, and those who paniced thinking their boats were uninsured because they had, like most of us, some (or all) untinned wire in their boats, I suggest they can, in my opinion, relax .
MidLandOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-03-2008, 01:58   #25
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,791
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidLandOne View Post
What has not been stated in this thread is that all runs of DC cabling should be sheathed ie the two conductors insulated and that all contained in another insulating and protective sheath (along similar lines to the TPS AC cable that Alan mentioned). For safety reasons this is far more important than tinning but the requirement is rarely mentioned.
Midland,
I have just been reading some older threads and came across this. I am not sure I understand how this is safer. Can you expand on this a bit?
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-03-2008, 05:53   #26
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 32,203
Images: 240
“Wire” (such as “primary” wire) usually refers to a single conductor, whereas “Cable” is a group of two or more insulated conductors, typically bound in a common protective jacket.
Sometimes the term cable is used to indicate a larger conductor (I often use “cable” in reference to to wires #6 AWG or larger).

Cables offer several advantages over (multiple) single-conductor wires:
- Cabling bundles associated wires together. In the case of a simple DC circuit, the 2-conductor keeps the Positive Hot and it’s Negative Return in a bundle.
- The outer jacket provides an extra layer of protection (electrical & thermal insulation, and mechanical & moisture barrier) to the conductor(s).
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-03-2008, 18:04   #27
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,791
Well I can see that when the conductors are bundled, this can make looming easier but the additional layer of protection of the outer jacket seems to pretty theoretical to me.

Midland's post seemed to indicate (to me anyway) that he considered this aspect to be a significant safety aspect. I just can't see it.

At boat voltages (14 to 28), the insulation aspects are marginal to say the least. I would hope that the mechanical aspects would not be required i.e. wiring is already well secured and protected for chafe etc. I can see a small gain in the moisture barrier aspect. As to thermal aspects, this is really a negative consideration. The current carrying capacity of each wire closely bundled cable (or loom) is reduced due to thermal considerations (especially when the pos. and neg. wires of the same circuit are adjacent to each other).

Still, I am open to other arguments here - that is one of the many reasons to be on this forum.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2008, 01:37   #28
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 32,203
Images: 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
... As to thermal aspects, this is really a negative consideration. The current carrying capacity of each wire closely bundled cable (or loom) is reduced due to thermal considerations (especially when the pos. and neg. wires of the same circuit are adjacent to each other) ...
This is true.

From ABYC E-11
11.16.1.3.8.1. Where single conductors or multiconductor cables are bundled for a distance greater than 24 inches (610 mm), the allowable ampacity of each conductor shall be reduced as shown in TABLE VII and TABLE XIII.

Which all show significant reduction of current-carrying capacities, depending upon number of conductors in bundle. These reductions apply whether the wires are in single-conductors, or multi-conductor cables.
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2008, 11:31   #29
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1
does anyone know of a wiring diagram for dual stations, I have a mint pennyan 32ft but someone has been in the system and needs to be corrected and checked out before going out to sea , can anyone help ,,,thank you all Ray
Ray Rigdon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2008, 12:07   #30
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 32,203
Images: 240
Dual Stations are wired just the same as, and in parallel, as single stations.
they use special "dual station" senders.
__________________

__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
best place to get wire? jumpnkd Construction, Maintenance & Refit 6 21-01-2007 02:22
Wire irwinsailor Construction, Maintenance & Refit 35 30-03-2006 05:10
Rope to wire splice Setia Construction, Maintenance & Refit 10 26-10-2004 00:28
Wire size calculator Alan Wheeler Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 0 21-09-2004 13:42
hot wire tauras Health, Safety & Related Gear 17 01-08-2004 23:22



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 15:45.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.