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Old 02-04-2012, 14:10   #16
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Re: Wind Gen Excess to Where?

My water tank is rated at 120volts 1kw.
The element reads (cold) 12.5 ohms.
For discussion purposes, let's assume the PO's is similar.

If you dump the wind generator into that resistance, it's going to take forever to heat the water, and neither will it provide any significant load.
For example, if the WG is providing say, even 25 volts, it would only be generating two amps. 25v x 2a = only 50 watts.
Good luck with that.
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Old 02-04-2012, 15:07   #17
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Re: Wind Gen Excess to Where?

"Multiple charge controllers connected to a battery don't get confused. It's the battery that determines the charging voltage not the charge controllers. "
Dave, I've got to disagree with you here and ALL the charging company tech folks I've spoken to have said the same thing.
Unless you've got a real dumb charger aka just a power supply, each of your voltage sources (charging sources) has some type of "voltage sense" that reads the "battery" voltage and makes decisions based on that.
Now, what happens when your solar panel, or windgen, or MPPT controller, any of them, is happily putting out full power because the battery wasn't at 13.8 volts? Well, that source puts out full power, and if you turn on another source, like your engine and alternator, the alternator's sense lead (which should be conected to the battery but sometimes it turned back to the alternator output instead) is going to say "Oh, there's good voltage here, I'm shutting down". Same thing with an MPPT, same thing with the dump switch on the windgen.
In practical terms, you are creating a crap shoot. Whichever device is set for a slightly higher or lower voltage output or voltage sense, one of them is going to beat all the others and trick them because they are now reading voltage from a chaging source--not from a battery alone.

Yes, to some extent a big hungry battery can swamp all that out, and in that scenario you are right, the battery eats up all the power and all the charing sources "should" see the same hungry battery's voltage. "Shoulda woulda coulda".

If the battery is a large bank, sitting at 90-95% and what you'd really like is to quickly (or economically) push it to 100% for better long-term life...it would be nice to have the chargers play nicely, but they just don't know how.

In reality? Every tech has agreed it is a crap shoot, there is no telling how the devices will actually behave. If the battery is really hungry, run 'em all. Otherwise, you might as well manually shut down all but one, because you're just wasting bearings, or power, or fuel.

Ah, wait...."Stanley, here's another fine mess you've gotten us into!" as Hardy said to Laurel. I think you just volunteered for another extensive round of experimentation. I do hope you've got the 12-volt data loggers lined up and ready to go.<G>
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Old 02-04-2012, 15:41   #18
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Re: Wind Gen Excess to Where?

Hello ..Just asking about your Lifepo4 battery system.. planning for summer upgrade .. Thanks Paul
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Old 02-04-2012, 20:17   #19
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Re: Wind Gen Excess to Where?

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Originally Posted by Chkm8 View Post
Hello ..Just asking about your Lifepo4 battery system.. planning for summer upgrade .. Thanks Paul
Start here:


LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

I am thrilled with the conversion.

Steve
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Old 09-04-2012, 03:23   #20
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Re: Wind Gen Excess to Where?

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Don't do it - MPPT controllers are only for Solar. If there is no load on the Wind genny it can generate very high voltages that may blow the diodes.

If you have a wind regulator (whatever sort) and a Solar how does either one know when the batteries are charged - they can get confused by the volts coming from the other charger and switch to float. There are combined wind and solar chargers that will control both.

The simplest answer is to follow the KISS principle and have no controller and lock of the blades when you know the batteries are 100% charged - which will not be very often if you are cruising all the time. When you leave the boat tie off the wind genny and let the solar do all the work.
Two morning stars that can talk to each other is the plan.One solar and one on the genny. i should of said this before.
As for a no load AB blowing the Diodes the AB has a internal reg that i can adjust.So set the Morning star for the wind at .......easy numbers14.8.And the internal to shut down at 14.7...I dont know the max it will put out as of yet.Just what they say it will.These are just arbritrary numbers.How does that no load wind genny?
Reason for 2 controllers is one will die eventually and need to be replaced.In the meantime i can run a partial 24/12 charging system.

And get twice the amps for the space/systems.So i want 2 controllers on board anyway.
And yes i do agree with a KISS system but that doesnt feed my amp hour or space needs.24v to 12v does.
And thank you for your imput.
Mark
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Old 09-04-2012, 03:35   #21
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Re: Wind Gen Excess to Where?

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
"Multiple charge controllers connected to a battery don't get confused. It's the battery that determines the charging voltage not the charge controllers. "
Dave, I've got to disagree with you here and ALL the charging company tech folks I've spoken to have said the same thing.
Unless you've got a real dumb charger aka just a power supply, each of your voltage sources (charging sources) has some type of "voltage sense" that reads the "battery" voltage and makes decisions based on that.
Now, what happens when your solar panel, or windgen, or MPPT controller, any of them, is happily putting out full power because the battery wasn't at 13.8 volts? Well, that source puts out full power, and if you turn on another source, like your engine and alternator, the alternator's sense lead (which should be conected to the battery but sometimes it turned back to the alternator output instead) is going to say "Oh, there's good voltage here, I'm shutting down". Same thing with an MPPT, same thing with the dump switch on the windgen.
In practical terms, you are creating a crap shoot. Whichever device is set for a slightly higher or lower voltage output or voltage sense, one of them is going to beat all the others and trick them because they are now reading voltage from a chaging source--not from a battery alone.

Yes, to some extent a big hungry battery can swamp all that out, and in that scenario you are right, the battery eats up all the power and all the charing sources "should" see the same hungry battery's voltage. "Shoulda woulda coulda".

If the battery is a large bank, sitting at 90-95% and what you'd really like is to quickly (or economically) push it to 100% for better long-term life...it would be nice to have the chargers play nicely, but they just don't know how.

In reality? Every tech has agreed it is a crap shoot, there is no telling how the devices will actually behave. If the battery is really hungry, run 'em all. Otherwise, you might as well manually shut down all but one, because you're just wasting bearings, or power, or fuel.

Ah, wait...."Stanley, here's another fine mess you've gotten us into!" as Hardy said to Laurel. I think you just volunteered for another extensive round of experimentation. I do hope you've got the 12-volt data loggers lined up and ready to go.<G>
This is what i have read to.
What i am doing is not a "plug and play" system.And your results may vary.The smart box between controllers might be ok.Morning star makes a box that lets controllers talk to each other.And is not desighned for a wind/solar combo but they realy cant tell me no it wont work.Changing how your hooked to bats might help.might not.worse case i see is a wind genny i turn off when the bats are allmost there or turn on the watermaker.or dump to hot water.And have a spare controller for when one goes down.
Experements make the world more interesting me thinks.
Thank you for your more than thoughtfull input.
Mark
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Old 09-04-2012, 03:43   #22
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Re: Wind Gen Excess to Where?

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Make sure the12v elementwill actually fit the water heater my similar plans were foiled when I looked at the nonstandard element on the water heater
Did you find one that worked and if so what were your results?
Thank you for the advice
Mark
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Old 09-04-2012, 03:46   #23
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Re: Wind Gen Excess to Where?

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Your whole set up dose not make sense
Thanks you for your thoughtfull input.Please continue beating your head against the wall.
Mark
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Old 09-04-2012, 11:06   #24
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Re: Wind Gen Excess to Where?

One of those projects still on the back burner.been running with no regulation.big banks don't do anything fast so its easy to keep up on trendsOTE][/QUOTE]
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Old 09-04-2012, 11:34   #25
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Re: Wind Gen Excess to Where?

we run two controlers on our system with a dump load in the waterheater.. have been doing so for going on 10 years now off the grid..
Our bank consists of 10 - lifeline 4ds of 210 amp hours each or a total of over 2000 in storage..
Our controler for solar, (2-130 watt panels) is a morning star TS 15
For the wind charger (4-winds) is a morningstar TS 45 with the dip switches set to dump ..
And the water never gets above warm.. even when the wind charger is puttlng out 10 amps..
My batteries , rated at 12.2 for 50% have never fallen below 12.6.. fully charged is 12.8..
MY SYSTEM WORKS>> ITS PROVEN ITSELF.. seperate controlers will work together..
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Old 09-04-2012, 11:37   #26
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Re: Wind Gen Excess to Where?

Mark, When we installed our Eclectic Energy D400 a couple years ago I installed an AC/DC water heater element to shunt extra amps to our batt,s. It fit right in to our Seaward w/h. I'm not sure that if it has ever shunted over as we have 1250 AH,s of batt,s and large loads. The best thing is the A/C side is now 300W instead of the 1500W it used to be. Now we can turn it on when the genset is charging the batt,s with minimal load. Not sure of the D/C side rating, 300W or 500W. We got the element from a D400 supplier in Washington. I wish I hadn't done the work to install the shorting switch as I can just turn the unit to lock it. Hope this helps.

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Old 09-04-2012, 11:48   #27
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Re: Wind Gen Excess to Where?

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Not sure of the D/C side rating, 300W or 500W. We got the element from a D400 supplier in Washington. I wish I hadn't done the work to install the shorting switch as I can just turn the unit to lock it. Hope this helps.

Greg

Same here, lot of faff installing the switch when it is easy to turn the D400 off the wind.
How do find the DC water heating element, Randyonr3 does not get above warm with his element, how about yours, dont want to waste the time and money fitting a DC element for no good end result
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Old 09-04-2012, 12:47   #28
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Re: Wind Gen Excess to Where?

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Randyonr3 does not get above warm with his element, how about yours, dont want to waste the time and money fitting a DC element for no good end result

When we first installed ours, I was jazzed about getting HOT water but GORD did the numbers on me and we found the "hot Water" from the deverter load is just a myth and is only there to protect the wind charger and not to give you hot water..
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Old 09-04-2012, 14:18   #29
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Re: Wind Gen Excess to Where?

Mark-
"And is not desighned for a wind/solar combo but they realy cant tell me no it wont work." OK, Morningstar didn't tell you it could not work, but did they tell you that it SHOULD work, or that they THOUGHT it would work?
Do they make a special box to join two of their MPPT controllers, and if they make that box, have they explained how it works? i.e. Does it use one voltage sense lead to control the output form both boxes? Or what?
If your windgen can be throttled back by braking, that's good. Assuling you have a controller that will do that. If it cannot be throttled back and must be dumped--that's another whole issue.
The point is, if the folks who make the gear haven't found any good way to integrate it, the ODDS are that a kludge won't either. Considering the price of some of this gear, I'd experiment carefully, with meters and numbers, before risking the gear. Shutting down one source (or splitting the battery bank) on those really abundant energy days may just be the simplest and safest solution.

But whatever you wind up doing, please come back to post the results from time to time. A lot of us are interested in how it comes out.
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Old 09-04-2012, 14:27   #30
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Re: Wind Gen Excess to Where?

Nigel, I'm not sure the xtra amps have ever shunted to the w/heater but am glad it's there for protection from overcharging. Our 20 gal. water heater has only been "electrically" turned on a couple times in 5-1/2 yrs of cruising in the tropics. As the boat has been left in Nongsa, Indo. for 4 months now, with refer and freezer turned off, I'm glad the elements in place as we also have 3- 85watt solar panels. I should have shut down the D44! I bet the water's at least warm. I'll know in a few weeks as I go to take Cocokai to Thailand.

Greg
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