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Old 27-01-2015, 11:14   #31
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Re: Who is the ABYC, Why are they so Powerful?

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him think
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Old 27-01-2015, 11:16   #32
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Re: Who is the ABYC, Why are they so Powerful?

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You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him think
Yes, that was the point I was trying to make.

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Old 27-01-2015, 11:16   #33
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Re: Who is the ABYC, Why are they so Powerful?

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Gave it a try. Couldn't find the $35 download, just the $475 one or the $50/ea ones. No way to "look them up" or just read them to be able to know what a standard was on something. If there is a way they definitely are not making it easy. So if you know how why you just tell us?

So I don't really understand what your point is. The pricing pretty makes it so that the vast majority of boat owners will never have a copy of the standards.
If you pick up the phone and call, they can offer you an individual membership which is less money. If you are doing any level of re-fit this cost is minimal in the scope of things... Having to go back and re-do just one item because, it failed an insurance survey, (I see this frequently) can easily wipe out the cost of membership...
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Old 27-01-2015, 11:21   #34
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Re: Who is the ABYC, Why are they so Powerful?

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If you pick up the phone and call, they can offer you an individual membership which is less money.
Why do they keep that a secret then? If they can and are willing to offer less expense memberships why not make it that way to start with instead of having a higher price on the site? I feel automatic mistrust of any company/group that does this type of thing.

So if you know the "real" price one can get why don't you tell us?
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Old 27-01-2015, 11:39   #35
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Re: Who is the ABYC, Why are they so Powerful?

To sailorboy and others - sorry if I wasn't clear. My point about "$35" is that if you buy something like Calder's book (or a few other well-researched marine books), actually read it, and follow it, then you're getting about 95% of the good stuff out of the ABYC spec. Calder often cites or quotes the relevant specs.

I don't know ANYBODY outside of professionals and the most dedicated of amateurs who would actually seek out and read standards docs, anyways.

Also, it's free to look up or verify the cert of an ABYC-certified technician.

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Calder's book is not the same as ABYC references. I bet there are many instances where one could follow Calder completely, yet still fall outside some esoteric or pedantic piece of ABYC that an insurance company will pick at.
... I would take that bet.

I think I understand your point of view, but I sense there's a story behind it...? Anyway, if not the ABYC, then what standard(s) would you seek out or recommend? Assuming that not everyone is able to gain all the specialist knowledge themselves.
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Old 27-01-2015, 11:48   #36
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Re: Who is the ABYC, Why are they so Powerful?

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Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
Why do they keep that a secret then? If they can and are willing to often less expense memberships why not make it that way to start with instead of having a higher price on the site? I feel automatic mistrust of any company/group that does this type of thing.

So if you know the "real" price one can get why don't you tell us?
I never knew it to be a secret. After you said this I found it in two seconds right on the membership page..

https://abyc.site-ym.com/general/reg...mber_type.asp?

I have sent many individual owners there for an individual member ship. It is less than my member ship but by how much I don't know... If I had to shoot from this hip perhaps low 200's...?

That said Calder and Charlie Wing do a good job at following the electrical standards, Wing especially..
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Old 27-01-2015, 11:51   #37
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Re: Who is the ABYC, Why are they so Powerful?

MarineSail makes good points on the GI issue. Most will never know that their galvanic isolator has failed. When I first started working on boats, I installed lots of the first generation simple ones. I didn't think they were major expensive but they weren't free either. And it took from 2-4 hours to install them sometimes when access was difficult. Easy to wire but doing it was a trick sometimes. I talked most owners in to installing them when it came up. Not because I needed the work. I was 100% busy all the time. It was for their safety and protection of their asset.

Now the GI frigging things are major expensive. The standards changed, requiring failsafe design and self monitoring and status lights. But they did this for a good reason. You do want a working ground on your boat. You also do not want to be sending stray AC current out in the water around your boat (your diver would not like that), and you don't want it to eat up your zincs.

Regarding people having their own ABYC manuals, you can get an individual membership for much less, and you can buy the manuals. Nigel Calder's first book was good, the second one not so good. And he does not even begin to address the ABYC standards at the time of publication much less keep up with them. The biggest problem is reading and understanding them though. They are flat out difficult for a lay person to read. Part of it is the strict formatting and paragraphing, but also the should and should nots, and the dependings on, etc. Not to mention just the technical nature of the beast.

Many cannot read a circuit diagram and understand what is saying, especially the many variations of AC circuits to cover all the possibilities of systems and devices. You have to understand the little symbols, be able to follow the lines, and more importantly understand the sometimes subtle differences between one diagram and the other. But first you have to understand which diagram applies to you and that is not simple for most, as in 95%, of lay people to understand. Not to mention that some "professionals" are challenged by them.

If you do understand them they are invaluable as to knowing what the recommended system should be. Other sections of the documents are easy to understand and to apply. Some of them you will never need to know unless you are building a boat or don't have a metal boat, etc. Some of them specially exempt boats of certain ages, and some require it of all boats.

They were not developed for lay people. They were not purposely developed so lay people could not understand them either. But that is the reason why writers like Nigel Calder have been so helpful in presenting the most important tidbits in lay-like language. But I have to tell you that the first time I read some of the sections in his books, I walked away not having a clue what he just said. It made sense the more times I read it and worked with it, but some of it I have put in the DNK category in my brain.

I add this not to try to lead anyone in any particular direction as far as the ABYC standards except that I think they are one of the most important and most useful things I have seen to improve the safety of boating in general. They are not easy to use though. I have old copies but I don't think I am going to go out and buy new ones to work on my new/old boat. The old standards really set the bar pretty high already. The new ones higher still but I have to limit what I can or cannot pull off on my boat - time and money being the big drivers. I personally take ownership of the safety of my boat and I will follow 90% of the new standards, but a step at a time and hope that the one thing I don't do won't be a problem. I do prioritize the items though and I do the heavy-hitters safety/risk wise first.
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Old 27-01-2015, 12:00   #38
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Re: Who is the ABYC, Why are they so Powerful?

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Originally Posted by Andina Marie View Post
Example of ABYC paranoia.

ABYC required remote monitoring for Galvanic Isolators as well as fail safe design.

...

I feel that the ABYC required the monitoring equipment not so much to save lives or for practical allocation of funds devoted to safety, but from fear that if they did not require it and someone was killed, they could be subject to legal consequences for not having specified it.
(A primer, and an example of how ABYC research is serving the boating public)
Electric Shock Drowning

One very important part of this issue: the US and Canadian electrical codes don't yet mandate the sort of shore-power protection that is found in Europe and elsewhere... where deaths from ESD have been virtually unknown for the last 30 years. Long story short - if the US electrical codes caught up to Europe on this front, the need for monitored galvanic isolators would be greatly reduced.
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Old 27-01-2015, 12:50   #39
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Re: Who is the ABYC, Why are they so Powerful?

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If one needs to spend thousands of dollars just to view the ABYC recommendations, how does one even attempt to follow them when doing boat work?

Mark
Buy a book on how to work within the standards. Many people couldn't understand them if they had access to them. That's why there are "How To" books.

It's no different than the National Electrical Code. It's a standard but not really a book on how to wire a house or building. There are "How To" books for home and building wiring also.
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Old 27-01-2015, 13:06   #40
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Re: Who is the ABYC, Why are they so Powerful?

This seems to come and go so you might want to print it. Also, it might not be current or complete.


http://www.paneltronics.com/atimo_s/...11Excerpts.pdf


If you understand all this, get out the tools and get to work. If not, a separate book and some serious study is in order. Here's a sample:


11.8.2.1.4 Combination of Shore Power Cable(s), On-board Generator(s) and Inverter(s) -


A combination of power sources, used simultaneously if the boat circuitry is arranged such that the load


connected to each source is isolated from the other in accordance with E-11.5.5.6. Shore power cable(s)


plus on-board generator(s) and inverter(s) capacity shall be at least as large as the total electrical load


requirements calculated as per E-11.8.2.2 for each load group. Generator(s) and inverters(s) installation


and switching shall be as required in E-11.6.4.


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Old 27-01-2015, 14:11   #41
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Re: Who is the ABYC, Why are they so Powerful?

With regards to the OP's question, it's due to being a standard(s) the courts/ insurance will view them accordingly and although not a regulation (law) it's in everyone's best interest to follow them which in turn covers the due diligence aspect of covering ones ass when the pervebile **** hits the fan from not doing so.
Weather or not you're a certified installer/ or just doing for your own boat you'd best be aware of them, and if you are unable to distinguish the design intent etc. ......hire someone who can
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Old 27-01-2015, 14:17   #42
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Re: Who is the ABYC, Why are they so Powerful?

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With regards to the OP's question, it's due to being a standard(s) the courts/ insurance will view them accordingly and although not a regulation (law) it's in everyone's best interest to follow them which in turn covers the due diligence aspect of covering ones ass when the pervebile **** hits the fan from not doing so.
Weather or not you're a certified installer/ or just doing for your own boat you'd best be aware of them, and if you are unable to distinguish the design intent etc. ......hire someone who can
ABYC Electrical Standards E-11 are law in Canada.
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Old 27-01-2015, 14:26   #43
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Re: Who is the ABYC, Why are they so Powerful?

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ABYC Electrical Standards E-11 are law in Canada.
Agreed, but I was not trying to limit to any specific standard, just ABYC standards in general, but all the more reason & need to be aware of them, hence their power with regards to the OP's question.
By the way Wallace, how are you enjoying the new boat?
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Old 27-01-2015, 16:28   #44
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Re: Who is the ABYC, Why are they so Powerful?

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Agreed, but I was not trying to limit to any specific standard, just ABYC standards in general, but all the more reason & need to be aware of them, hence their power with regards to the OP's question.
By the way Wallace, how are you enjoying the new boat?
I've pretty much gutted it. None of it was even close to anything in ABYC but it will be by spring
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Old 28-01-2015, 09:09   #45
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Re: Who is the ABYC, Why are they so Powerful?

Other countries publish standards for free as a safety service, standards are similar accross Europe and North America. It is also interesting to compare them. For example; in US & EU standards AC & DC grounds must or must not be connected or must be. One argues that if the AC ground is lost then DC cases are still grounded. Yhe other that is the ground point shears leaving the ground wires connected all DC equipment can become AC live. Safety is often a perspective.
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