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Old 10-09-2016, 20:39   #121
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Re: What is your Real Amp Hour per Day Usage

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Not a heat loss, just heat "energy" transfer from panel to air.
When wasted heat “energy” contribute to arm the environment and cause regional and global warming, it is referred as heat loss there is no purpose in heating further the air of our planet. Many states in the world have legislated to reduce heat losses.
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Old 10-09-2016, 20:41   #122
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Re: What is your Real Amp Hour per Day Usage

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Man up, chuck out that Vegemite and that Marmite, and have some traditional Wincarnis for breakfast... not the wishy washy new Wincarnis... the original with the meat in it.... Bovril with a bang!
They still make that stuff? I don't recall hearing of it since I left the UK 50 odd years ago!
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Old 10-09-2016, 20:42   #123
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Re: What is your Real Amp Hour per Day Usage

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When wasted heat “energy” contribute to arm the environment and cause regional and global warming, it is referred as heat loss there is no purpose in heating further the air of our planet. Many states in the world have legislated to reduce heat losses.
Just a question what does this statement have to do with daily ah usage on boats
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Old 10-09-2016, 20:44   #124
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Re: What is your Real Amp Hour per Day Usage

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However I never got over the problems of massive evaporative loss, which of course meant the salts in the bore water soon started to crystallise on the panels and roof iron. So reluctantly gave it up because the cost of using treated tap water would have been prohibitive.
Ah, That is exactly the issue with spraying the top of the panels. Too much mineral buildup. You would need distilled water to really keep the minerial deposits at bay.

So the easy engineering solution is add a spongy foam material to the back side of the panels, add tiny misters to the underside and spray the water over the foam in contact with the backside of the panel. The panels stay cooler and no mineral buildup on the glass.
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Old 10-09-2016, 20:45   #125
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Re: What is your Real Amp Hour per Day Usage

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When wasted heat “energy” contribute to arm the environment and cause regional and global warming, it is referred as heat loss there is no purpose in heating further the air of our planet. Many states in the world have legislated to reduce heat losses.
Give it a rest. The rest of us don't want to create another Global Warming thread. Especially one based on your bad science.

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Old 10-09-2016, 20:47   #126
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Re: What is your Real Amp Hour per Day Usage

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Give it a rest. The rest of us don't want to create another Global Warming thread.

At least not till late November in the north. ( entertainment value during the freeze up until spring breakup)
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Old 10-09-2016, 20:55   #127
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Re: What is your Real Amp Hour per Day Usage

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When wasted heat “energy” contribute to arm the environment and cause regional and global warming, it is referred as heat loss there is no purpose in heating further the air of our planet. Many states in the world have legislated to reduce heat losses.
Ah, no. The heat transfer from the panel to the air does not increase the earths energy heat balance. That energy is already part of the daily surface heat gain, it simply moves it from panel to air, increasing panel efficiency. The net gain in earth temperature is zero.

Because the heat gain was from solar radiation, it's part of the natural heat gain/heat loss cycle between day and night. That is the sun side of the planet gains heat during the day, but at night it looses the heat back to space.
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Old 10-09-2016, 21:04   #128
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Re: What is your Real Amp Hour per Day Usage

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Ah, That is exactly the issue with spraying the top of the panels. Too much mineral buildup. You would need distilled water to really keep the minerial deposits at bay.

So the easy engineering solution is add a spongy foam material to the back side of the panels, add tiny misters to the underside and spray the water over the foam in contact with the backside of the panel. The panels stay cooler and no mineral buildup on the glass.
A very interesting suggestion.


Of course, thinking about it a little, I suppose you'd need an impervious layer below the foam so that you could collect the water after it has done the job, but some kind of fibreglass drip tray setup might work very well, particularly in the case of using salt water on a boat.
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Old 10-09-2016, 21:11   #129
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Re: What is your Real Amp Hour per Day Usage

Ok.. I am going to admit my ignorance. How do you measure amp hour usage? I am about to start trying to convert my lights to LED and figure out a plan to be more careful and I sense the start is to figure out my usage... what sort of tool is needed? and what ARE the correct units?
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Old 10-09-2016, 21:19   #130
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Re: What is your Real Amp Hour per Day Usage

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A very interesting suggestion.


Of course, thinking about it a little, I suppose you'd need an impervious layer below the foam so that you could collect the water after it has done the job, but some kind of fibreglass drip tray setup might work very well, particularly in the case of using salt water on a boat.
Well Yes if your panels are say over a bimini then you would need a drip pan and drain back overboard. Myself, I would make it all part of the panel with a solid metal or plastic backing and a drain to hose overboard.

You could even have the fill be full height of the panel frame and simply have a 1/8" ish hole half way up. so the foam sits in the water.

Of course there is a down side. First the foam will act as an insulator so if it's not kept wet it would reduce panel efficiency by keeping the cells hotter there by reducing voltage even more.

The better idea would be to add a plastic panel to the back of the panel about 1/8" off the back with short spaces to keep the gap constant. That would be tricky to get water tight. Then add a water in and water out connections. That way, if there is no water flowing at least there is no additional voltage losses to excessive cell heating.
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Old 10-09-2016, 21:34   #131
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Re: What is your Real Amp Hour per Day Usage

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Yes just more heat losses, just what the planet require at the moment.
I'm eating vegemite now produced by a factory that is in turn powered by a fossil fuel burning energy source.
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Old 10-09-2016, 21:35   #132
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Re: What is your Real Amp Hour per Day Usage

Very interesting ideas. Would a phase change heat pipe system be more reliable? No need for water and the potential for blockage/corrosion. No moving parts or electrical energy requirement? Just needs calibrated design and physics takes care of the rest.
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Old 10-09-2016, 21:37   #133
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Re: What is your Real Amp Hour per Day Usage

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Originally Posted by Pendragon35 View Post
Ok.. I am going to admit my ignorance. How do you measure amp hour usage? I am about to start trying to convert my lights to LED and figure out a plan to be more careful and I sense the start is to figure out my usage... what sort of tool is needed? and what ARE the correct units?
The best way is with a battery monitor that gives you daily Ah in and out of the battery's and tracks Amps flowing.

Myself being a bit more primitive, use an amp meter or published loads to check and or calculate current flow with each device. So if a light draws 9 watts, as my main cabin light does. I can assume that at 12.5V (average battery voltage under load in evening), it will show a 0.72 amphere load. For a typical 5 hour evening would be 0.72amps X 5 hours = 3.6Ah used per evening. (0.72Ah used each hour).

Some things like my laptop which draws anywhere from 1.5 amperes to 10 amperes when the laptop battery is in bulk mode, can be tricky.

Then there is my 120V fridge that when running is drawing 15 amps (ouch), but it only runs roughly 10 minutes an hour or 1/6 of of an hour for a Ah usage of 2.5 Ah. Over 24 hours that's 60 Ah.

So a pen and paper or a spreadsheet can be used to get pretty close to the energy used depending on things on. For me that's the fridge, anchor light, cabin light, propane sniffer and maybe a phone charger. I don't charge the laptop at night. Like I say, I'm pretty primitive.
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Old 10-09-2016, 21:51   #134
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Re: What is your Real Amp Hour per Day Usage

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Very interesting ideas. Would a phase change heat pipe system be more reliable? No need for water and the potential for blockage/corrosion. No moving parts or electrical energy requirement? Just needs calibrated design and physics takes care of the rest.
Yes it would be more efficient. But because of the flat panel, you really need a flat heat pipe. Lets call it a heat plate. You could also use multiple 1/2" copper heat pipes say 5 feet long each add a wicking material for the length of each pipe. Add a valve. Then vacuum pump the air and moisture out and add a few oz of refrigerant (or propane which is close to R12 in properties). Would have to play with exact amount. Then find a way to attach to back of the panel to maximize surface contact. Of course the heat pipes need to extend out to free air.

The heat pipe at the panel heats up causing the refrigerant in the wick to vaporize, The cold end of the heat pipe (in the water would be best, but air would work too. cools the refrigerent gas which condenses onto the wick and moves back up or over to the panel as the hot side vaporizes. Pretty cool. Those NASA engineers were pretty smart.

I've been playing with the idea of a larger heat pipe, with part in the water and part in the cabin as a means to cool the cabin a bit in summer. Have not worked out how to keep the water out of the boat... yet. perhaps with it incapsulated in the keel... Details Details.
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Old 10-09-2016, 21:56   #135
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Re: What is your Real Amp Hour per Day Usage

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I have done this very thing with our 2KW house solar array.

Here in Adelaide the days get very hot in summer, 40 degrees Celsius is not uncommon, and even our Kaneka solar panels, which cope with heat better than most, lose a lot of efficiency.

I experimented with using our bore water (which has the advantage of being free aside from the pumping cost) to cool the panels and got an immediate 20% (yes that number is correct) increase in power output in the middle of the day. However I never got over the problems of massive evaporative loss, which of course meant the salts in the bore water soon started to crystallise on the panels and roof iron. So reluctantly gave it up because the cost of using treated tap water would have been prohibitive.

Maybe on a boat you could use a steady flow of sea water, given it is a practically limitless asset, and by keeping the flow steady prevent salt crystallisation.

Regarding the water bag on the front of the car, they do work well, but only if the car is moving reasonably fast. We used to use them all time on the farm, but within 15 minutes of pulling up in the car, the water in the bag would have lost all of its chilliness and start to become unpleasantly warm to drink. Not to mention the strange taste the canvas on those bags always seemed to impart to the water.
Great information GILow. Well done on your innovation. So my thinking wasn't that crazy after all. Australians are truly an inventive lot.

A 20% increase in efficiency is not to be scoffed at.

Did you ever think of a low coast chemical softener or such to treat the water? I'm sure your correct about a constant flow of sea water accross a slightly angled panel will stop salt build up. Just may need to give a shot or spray of watermaker water immediately following ending salt water cooling. This will have to be done immediately to stop salt build up on the panels.

I think a mixed approach using SailorChic's underside of panel cooling along with a water cooled system may do the trick.

Glad you mentioned that the hessian bag worked. I'm sure I would have taken heat by people who have never heard of such a thing. By the way I wonder what speed you need to be doing to make it work?

Cheers.
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