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Old 10-09-2016, 19:16   #106
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Re: What is your Real Amp Hour per Day Usage

Wow, I woke up this morning to this thread going crazy.

Hi Jim, sorry mate but I believe attitude does at times (regularly) creep into your posts, and did this time, thus Bulwayos response. I understand your point or defense of StuM point but I feel most understood the poster quite easily, we arent all pyschists and IT guys so most likely view the world a little different.

I my self have noticed some attitudes creeping into my posts, I think its the nature of the forum "conflict forum", personally ive decided to do a little better as these "attitudes" keep good contributors away, which is a pity.

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Old 10-09-2016, 19:21   #107
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Re: What is your Real Amp Hour per Day Usage

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SailorChic, another respected member, joins the ruckus at the bar.
Just been watching the train wreck from afar. Knowing how Stu is a stickler for using proper terminology, I offered a minor clarification on what a heat pump is. I'm stepping back outside to give the cat a bath.
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Old 10-09-2016, 19:22   #108
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Re: What is your Real Amp Hour per Day Usage

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That's not such a small thing.
It is if you deal with adults and are commercial.
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Old 10-09-2016, 19:23   #109
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Re: What is your Real Amp Hour per Day Usage

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Probably would work. You are effectively creating a heat pump making use of the latent heat of evaporation of water. Electrical energy required to move the water will be far less than the heat energy removed from the panels.
I thought so myself. It would certainly be an interesting exercise to test and measure. As crazy as it sounds we may have stumbled on a cooling for solar system that could be to solar what a radiator was to the automobile combustion engine.

I was thinking of running cold water over the surface of the panel with the panel at a very slight angle, liquid captured by a small gutter at the down end passing through some kind of cooling system and pumped to repeat. The water could be treated with some type of coolest additive but would propably have to be clear rather than say green so it doesn't interfere with solar radiation onto the panel.

It of course needs a number of tests, not the least the effect of water on possible solar energy dissipation as it passes through the water into the solar cells. Clear glass covering over solar cells doesn't seem to effect the strength of the inbound solar energy so passing through clear water may not result in any energy loss.

This may be completely crazy but I remember travellers in the Australian outback would hang a hessian material bag full of water on the front of their cars. The water was ice cold even in 40 C temperatures.

Perhaps a similar method could be used for water cooling of a moving sailboat. Wouldn't help while at anchor unless facing into a strong wind.

A water reticulated cooling system for solar panels. Would be interesting to calculate the AH per solar panel usage day of this system.
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Old 10-09-2016, 19:45   #110
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Re: What is your Real Amp Hour per Day Usage

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Well not really a heat pump (sorry Stu) as your not pumping, or rejecting heat from point A to point B. It's just a phase change to absorb heat as the water evaporates.

I might attach a absorption media (polyethylene open weave mat) to the back of the panel and run a tiny 12V pump to circulate sea water (assuming it's cooler then PV panel surface temperature) across the mat. Panel voltage is rated at standard conditions, which is 20 degrees C.

Typical panels loose about a volt per 20 degree C rise (roughly ball park). So if your using a MPPT controller you could gain some watts by cooling the panel. perhaps as much as 10-15 watts per panel. But you would have to subtract the power to run a pump. Those of us with only a PWM controller, it offers no advantage. Pity.

I might build a flat plate heat pipe (using copper plate, solder, long wicks and refrigerant (propane, R134A, etc) that could do a fair bit of heat rejection with no moving parts. Now that would be a heat pump, transferring heat via refrigerant phase change from one side of the heat pipe or heat plate to the other.

Sorry for the thread drift.
I like your logic. But I always bench test the theoretical. Having different methodologies tested against each other at times can lead to surprising results. Even results that spawn a different and new methodology.

That's why applied experience is important. And you certainly have that.

Since using solar energy to replace AH per day use is important I don't think it is much of a discussion drift. But it is something that propably should be discussed in another thread. My fault.

Sorry but it's the way my brain works. While discussing one issue I come up with tangentile ideas, thoughts and concepts. I enjoy brainstorming with like minded tangentile thinkers.
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Old 10-09-2016, 19:55   #111
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Re: What is your Real Amp Hour per Day Usage

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Note that JD's concept of wind MW "replacing" coal doesn't mean that an equivalent number of coal station are shut down. it just means that they are kept running and burning fossil fuels without putting any power into the grid so that they can be spun up rapidly when the wind stops blowing (like right now!). Somehow, that wasted fuel is never taken into account when discussing the effectiveness of wind energy.
Do you know for a fact or you just assumed?


Originally Posted by weavis: I decided not to correct the inaccuracies.
chal: And perhaps may amount to another 2000 + posts.

More my style.
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Old 10-09-2016, 20:03   #112
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Re: What is your Real Amp Hour per Day Usage

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Do you know for a fact or you just assumed?


Originally Posted by weavis: I decided not to correct the inaccuracies.
chal: And perhaps may amount to another 2000 + posts.

More my style.
eh?
I think I followed the drift... nothing to do with this thread, Marmite I think was the subject..

But just in case Im wrong, Im having Marmite on toast...

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Old 10-09-2016, 20:03   #113
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Re: What is your Real Amp Hour per Day Usage

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I thought so myself. It would certainly be an interesting exercise to test and measure. As crazy as it sounds we may have stumbled on a cooling for solar system that could be to solar what a radiator was to the automobile combustion engine.
Yes just more heat losses, just what the planet require at the moment.
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Old 10-09-2016, 20:49   #114
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Re: What is your Real Amp Hour per Day Usage

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Do you know for a fact or you just assumed?
.
Stu is correct. The power companies have to keep several plants (coal or more likely in the USA natural gas fired boilers) on low fire hold, ready to take up the slack should the wind die down unexpectedly. They also have gas turbine generators that can be going in just a few minutes.

Of course the fuel burned just keeping the boilers on hot standby is far less then when its firing at 80+% percent. So there is emissions reductions.
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Old 10-09-2016, 20:57   #115
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Re: What is your Real Amp Hour per Day Usage

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Yes just more heat losses, just what the planet require at the moment.
Not a heat loss, just heat "energy" transfer from panel to air. The net energy balance to the earth would be unchanged. That conservation of energy thingy.

Oh dang it, Now Stu has me doing it.
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Old 10-09-2016, 21:18   #116
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Re: What is your Real Amp Hour per Day Usage

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Do you know for a fact or you just assumed?
Why on earth have you dug a totally irrelevant post out of another thread to comment on. There's enough diversion already in this one.
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Old 10-09-2016, 21:23   #117
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Re: What is your Real Amp Hour per Day Usage

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eh?
I think I followed the drift... nothing to do with this thread, Marmite I think was the subject..

But just in case Im wrong, Im having Marmite on toast...

And I'm having Vegemite on toast.

It's far superior!

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Old 10-09-2016, 21:26   #118
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Re: What is your Real Amp Hour per Day Usage

Be strong, resist. Any thread has potential to morph into a climate change free for all if we are weak. And then Rich will hop onboard for the personal entertainment value. Bingo. Mi amigo.


BTW, you can bath a cat? Many talents you have. That can't be easy.

One can learn almost anything on a energy usage thread.
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Old 10-09-2016, 21:27   #119
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Re: What is your Real Amp Hour per Day Usage

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I thought so myself. It would certainly be an interesting exercise to test and measure. As crazy as it sounds we may have stumbled on a cooling for solar system that could be to solar what a radiator was to the automobile combustion engine.

I was thinking of running cold water over the surface of the panel with the panel at a very slight angle, liquid captured by a small gutter at the down end passing through some kind of cooling system and pumped to repeat. The water could be treated with some type of coolest additive but would propably have to be clear rather than say green so it doesn't interfere with solar radiation onto the panel.

It of course needs a number of tests, not the least the effect of water on possible solar energy dissipation as it passes through the water into the solar cells. Clear glass covering over solar cells doesn't seem to effect the strength of the inbound solar energy so passing through clear water may not result in any energy loss.

This may be completely crazy but I remember travellers in the Australian outback would hang a hessian material bag full of water on the front of their cars. The water was ice cold even in 40 C temperatures.

Perhaps a similar method could be used for water cooling of a moving sailboat. Wouldn't help while at anchor unless facing into a strong wind.

A water reticulated cooling system for solar panels. Would be interesting to calculate the AH per solar panel usage day of this system.
I have done this very thing with our 2KW house solar array.

Here in Adelaide the days get very hot in summer, 40 degrees Celsius is not uncommon, and even our Kaneka solar panels, which cope with heat better than most, lose a lot of efficiency.

I experimented with using our bore water (which has the advantage of being free aside from the pumping cost) to cool the panels and got an immediate 20% (yes that number is correct) increase in power output in the middle of the day. However I never got over the problems of massive evaporative loss, which of course meant the salts in the bore water soon started to crystallise on the panels and roof iron. So reluctantly gave it up because the cost of using treated tap water would have been prohibitive.

Maybe on a boat you could use a steady flow of sea water, given it is a practically limitless asset, and by keeping the flow steady prevent salt crystallisation.

Regarding the water bag on the front of the car, they do work well, but only if the car is moving reasonably fast. We used to use them all time on the farm, but within 15 minutes of pulling up in the car, the water in the bag would have lost all of its chilliness and start to become unpleasantly warm to drink. Not to mention the strange taste the canvas on those bags always seemed to impart to the water.
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Old 10-09-2016, 21:29   #120
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Re: What is your Real Amp Hour per Day Usage

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And I'm having Vegemite on toast.

It's far superior!

Man up, chuck out that Vegemite and that Marmite, and have some traditional Wincarnis for breakfast... not the wishy washy new Wincarnis... the original with the meat in it.... Bovril with a bang!
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