Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 11-11-2018, 06:41   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: San Lucas Sacatepequez Guatemala
Posts: 267
What is better and worse about

Other than the increased upfront cost what are the trade offs with proposed equipment and proposed system below versus traditional 5 HP Honda 4 cycle gas outboard that weighs 27.5 kgs (dry) and propane cooktop? Is it a better solution? Is there a better way to achieve something similar? Are there practical reasons it just won't work and is a dumb idea? Are other cruisers using a set up similar to the below?

(I am proposing 5 hp outboard(rather than smaller), so if the diesel falls, I can use the outboard to push the mother ship).

Proposed Equipment and System:

1. 30 ft cruising sailboat(Pogo 30), that weighs three tons that can cruise at 7-8 kts in 14 kts of wind, between 60% and 120% to the true wind.

2. 18 horsepower Yanmar with standard alternator and start up battery

3. Inflatable Dinghy that can fit 4 people.

4. Watt and Sea Pod 600

5. Solar panels of 200 W

6. Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 T R outboard (According to Torqueedo equivalent to 5 HP gas outboard), that weighs 18.6 kgs

7. 2 X Torqueedo Power 26-104 high-performance lithium battery 2,685 Wh (25.9 V / 104 Ah) that weigh 24.3 kg each.

8. 2 burner electric cook top

Intended Use: 8 weeks a year at 1-2 weeks at a time to sail the Channel Islands National Park out of Channels Islands, move the boat seasonally between SouCal and Sea of Cortez each year(2 difficult 1000 mile trips along the desolate coast of Baja per year).

Benefits of above versus standard set up(of Honda 5 HP cycle outboard and two burner propane cook top):

1. Don't have to deal with gas and propane and have either on board(lithium safer versus having propane on board).

2. No stink, much less noise from outboard.

3. Outboard itself is almost 1/2 as heavy.

4. A lot more electrical capacity for house using 1 X Torqueedo Power 26-104 high-performance lithium battery 2,685 Wh (25.9 V / 104 Ah) versus same weight AGM batteries.

Negatives:

1. You have to lug a 24.3 kg battery between aft starboard technical area and the dinghy. (The choice here seems to be between dealing with having gas on board versus having to lug a 24.3 kg battery to and from the dinghy unless you hang the dinghy off the back and kept and charged the battery while in the dinghy).

2. You can more easily repair or get parts or buy gas quickly for a Honda outboard in Mexico versus equivalent for Torqueedo.

What is wrong with the proposed other than a lot more expensive?

Have I missed any trade offs?

Can 1 X Torqueedo Power 26-104 high-performance lithium battery 2,685 Wh (25.9 V / 104 Ah) run an electric cook top, 6 fans, some led lights, computer and instruments while not sailing?
__________________

Augi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2018, 07:20   #2
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 12,578
Re: What is better and worse about

Gas outboard over electric, for reliability and range. This could be a safety issue if (when) the SHTF in a remote area, primitive conditions.

Also, less critical, but the electric infrastructure required to eliminate cooking fuel, for my budget would not be worth the marginal gains in safety.

The large capacity battery is one thing, but you will not it seems have sufficient energy sources to quickly **recharge** what you'd need to use.
__________________

john61ct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2018, 07:31   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 210
Re: What is better and worse about

For me lugging a 24.3 kg battery between boat and dinghy is a non starter. If i did not hurt myself with the awkward lifting I would eventually drop the battery in the water. Double the concern due to the motion this action will induce in your light weight boat.

For the type of sailing you propose my preference would be a good rowing dinghy with serious oars.

My focus would include keeping the total weight of the dinghy and propultion system light weight and easy to store on the boat.
Sparx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2018, 07:54   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: San Lucas Sacatepequez Guatemala
Posts: 267
Re: What is better and worse about

Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
Gas outboard over electric, for reliability and range. This could be a safety issue if (when) the SHTF in a remote area, primitive conditions.

Also, less critical, but the electric infrastructure required to eliminate cooking fuel, for my budget would not be worth the marginal gains in safety.

The large capacity battery is one thing, but you will not it seems have sufficient energy sources to quickly **recharge** what you'd need to use.
The trade off is with the proposed you do not to have to lug, replenish, and deal with propane and gasoline. The key is if you could always keep the dinghy(with battery in dinghy), on davits hanging off the back of the boat, or at least most of the time, the proposed starts to make sense. Supposedly the electric motors are more dependable, and the lithium batteries work better if you have the system set up correctly.

The biggest negative, in general, is the age of the technology that is being proposed. Gasoline outboards have been around a long time and there has been and is a lot of competition to create the better mouse trap. So it is pretty well perfected. Not sure about the proposed. Plus I understand a gasoline outboard better than the electrical system for the proposed.
Augi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2018, 08:03   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: San Lucas Sacatepequez Guatemala
Posts: 267
Re: What is better and worse about

Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
Gas outboard over electric, for reliability and range. This could be a safety issue if (when) the SHTF in a remote area, primitive conditions.

Also, less critical, but the electric infrastructure required to eliminate cooking fuel, for my budget would not be worth the marginal gains in safety.

The large capacity battery is one thing, but you will not it seems have sufficient energy sources to quickly **recharge** what you'd need to use.
Yes. Unless you have at least 14 kts of wind and are sailing(so the hydro generator is supplying a lot of energy), 200 watts of solar is not enough for the proposed.
Augi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2018, 08:07   #6
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: San Lucas Sacatepequez Guatemala
Posts: 267
Re: What is better and worse about

Quote:
Originally Posted by Augi View Post
Yes. Unless you have at least 14 kts of wind and are sailing(so the hydro generator is supplying a lot of energy), 200 watts of solar is not enough for the proposed.
Of course you can always run the engine to charge the batteries. But that is expensive and can shorten the life or ruin the diesel engine.
Augi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2018, 08:14   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: San Lucas Sacatepequez Guatemala
Posts: 267
Re: What is better and worse about

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparx View Post
For me lugging a 24.3 kg battery between boat and dinghy is a non starter. If i did not hurt myself with the awkward lifting I would eventually drop the battery in the water. Double the concern due to the motion this action will induce in your light weight boat.

For the type of sailing you propose my preference would be a good rowing dinghy with serious oars.

My focus would include keeping the total weight of the dinghy and propultion system light weight and easy to store on the boat.
I see your point about the rowing dinghy. Plus the Pogo 30 has a retracting keel. With the keel retracted you only have about 3 ft of draft. That means in a lot of cases you can get close to where you want to go in the dinghy and rowing is by far a better option than messing with an electric or gasoline outboard.
Augi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2018, 08:39   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: San Lucas Sacatepequez Guatemala
Posts: 267
Re: What is better and worse about

Quote:
Originally Posted by Augi View Post
I see your point about the rowing dinghy. Plus the Pogo 30 has a retracting keel. With the keel retracted you only have about 3 ft of draft. That means in a lot of cases you can get close to where you want to go in the dinghy and rowing is by far a better option than messing with an electric or gasoline outboard.
It is off topic but the doing the 1000 mile trip along Baja(especially going north), is daunting. You are going to frequently or almost always have a northwest wind. That means you have a 1000 mile lee shore that is pretty desolate. If the diesel fails when you are trying to get to SouCal, to avoid getting beached, you would have to sail west or maybe south west until you could fix the diesel or get a wind direction where you could get headway towards SouCal. Or just turn around, and sail south to get to the closest port where the diesel can be repaired.
Augi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2018, 08:53   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 12,578
Re: What is better and worse about

Quote:
Originally Posted by Augi View Post
the lithium batteries work better if you have the system set up correctly.
My issue is the limited range. Even a huge battery bank stores a tiny fraction of travel miles compared to a can of gasoline.

And you can get refilled much more quickly and easily.

And you were talking about the outboard being backup for propelling the mothership. If your alternator is not charging, are you waiting for a puny 200W panel to trickle the energy you need, for what four days? Hydro's input is insignificant, and one critical scenario's no wind anyway.

Sometimes you **really need** to move, not just an optional "would be nice".
john61ct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2018, 09:14   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Lower Chesapeake Bay
Boat: Bristol 27
Posts: 5,819
Re: What is better and worse about

Quote:
Originally Posted by Augi View Post
It is off topic but the doing the 1000 mile trip along Baja(especially going north), is daunting. You are going to frequently or almost always have a northwest wind. That means you have a 1000 mile lee shore that is pretty desolate. If the diesel fails when you are trying to get to SouCal, to avoid getting beached, you would have to sail west or maybe south west until you could fix the diesel or get a wind direction where you could get headway towards SouCal. Or just turn around, and sail south to get to the closest port where the diesel can be repaired.
So why is this a problem if you aren't on a tight schedule? Plus this is IF the diesel fails.

Also, once you sail over to the Western Side, you will be in pretty good shape especially if your boat will point reasonably well.

I deal with this problem a lot but in smaller terms........and I rarely use the engine. I'm usually trying to get SW from a NE anchorage with the wind out of the SW. Many times I have to sail West which ends up being NW until I can get enough leverage then tack on the wind and come home

Recently though I have been sailing further North and anchoring on the North Western Side of the bay which sets up perfectly for the return sail especially on an outgoing tide
thomm225 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2018, 09:19   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Brazil
Boat: Custom Swedish Vindö 50 (35 ft)
Posts: 618
Re: What is better and worse about

At least with a Pogo 30 you won't have to rely on your engine very much!
Copacabana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2018, 09:51   #12
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: San Lucas Sacatepequez Guatemala
Posts: 267
Re: What is better and worse about

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
So why is this a problem if you aren't on a tight schedule? Plus this is IF the diesel fails.

Also, once you sail over to the Western Side, you will be in pretty good shape especially if your boat will point reasonably well.

I deal with this problem a lot but in smaller terms........and I rarely use the engine. I'm usually trying to get SW from a NE anchorage with the wind out of the SW. Many times I have to sail West which ends up being NW until I can get enough leverage then tack on the wind and come home

Recently though I have been sailing further North and anchoring on the North Western Side of the bay which sets up perfectly for the return sail especially on an outgoing tide
It is daunting because I am a novice sailor and along long stretches of Baja unless you are traveling with group you are on your own. But I love the challenge.
Augi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2018, 10:06   #13
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Boat: Bestevaer.
Posts: 11,729
Re: What is better and worse about

You don’t have enough battery storage, or power generation to contemplate replacing propane with electric cooking while away from shore power.
noelex 77 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2018, 10:10   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: San Lucas Sacatepequez Guatemala
Posts: 267
Re: What is better and worse about

Quote:
Originally Posted by Copacabana View Post
At least with a Pogo 30 you won't have to rely on your engine very much!
A Pogo 30 is not going to point as high many boats, and will tend to slam sailing close hauled in a chop or motoring into the wind in a chop. The other points of sail will be fast and stable.
Augi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2018, 10:20   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: San Lucas Sacatepequez Guatemala
Posts: 267
Re: What is better and worse about

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
You don’t have enough battery storage, or power generation to contemplate replacing propane with electric cooking while away from shore power.
Thanks for your comment. I am going to stick with propane for cooking and a gasoline outboard for the dinghy. But also get a dinghy that is good for rowing so I don't have to mess with the outboard as much. KISS!!

I figured that is where it would end up. But I just wanted see if more electric could be incorporated for my parameters.
__________________

Augi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Better and worse dog life jackets rsn48 Families, Kids and Pets Afloat 32 15-09-2018 03:28
Is this better or worse for cruisers visiting the Philippines? ontherocks83 Cruising News & Events 20 07-09-2016 10:38
This Changing Life... better..? or worse..?? boatman61 Our Community 164 07-06-2014 20:51

Advertise Here


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:08.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
×

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.