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Old 10-06-2018, 11:52   #136
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Re: What count as a cycle (battery life)

Bulk just means not yet hit the Absorb voltage setpoint.

Yes, high enough current combined with barely depleted bank, Bulk stage can be a matter of seconds, need to be watching closely with a DMM right on the bank terminals to catch it, perfectly normal.

But a big bank 50% depleted may be at Bulk for an hour or more, depending on how much current is available.

Absorb is rarely less than 4 hours, unless current is so low Bulk takes many hours to hit the Absorb setpoint.
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Old 10-06-2018, 19:55   #137
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Re: What count as a cycle (battery life)

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
When your battery switch is set to both, the batteries are connected together electrically, very much as they would be if wired in parallel.
It’s not possible to charge a battery independently with them connected by the battery switch.
Of course any other selection other than both and you could.
The charging wires from the Xantrex run directly to each battery separately, and not the switch. So it appears not to matter where the switch is set for charging purposes, only for distribution. In fact, I believe the switch could be set to OFF and each of the batts. would still get a direct charge from the Xantrex. Either that or I am missing something pretty basic here (wouldn't be the first time ).
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Old 10-06-2018, 20:04   #138
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What count as a cycle (battery life)

If the switch were set to anything other than both, the batteries would be charged separately because they are not connected.
However in both, they are connected, doesn’t matter if the wires only go to one battery or not, the other one is also connected.
There is a very small voltage loss at the wiring and the switch of course, but if it’s done correctly, it’s not much.

By putting the switch to both, you have connected the batteries in parallel.
It’s fine, nothing wrong, just in both you can’t charge your batteries independently, but why would you want to? It would take twice as long.
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Old 11-06-2018, 08:08   #139
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Re: What count as a cycle (battery life)

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
If the switch were set to anything other than both, the batteries would be charged separately because they are not connected.
However in both, they are connected, doesn’t matter if the wires only go to one battery or not, the other one is also connected.
There is a very small voltage loss at the wiring and the switch of course, but if it’s done correctly, it’s not much.

By putting the switch to both, you have connected the batteries in parallel.
It’s fine, nothing wrong, just in both you can’t charge your batteries independently, but why would you want to? It would take twice as long.
Maybe not, given the apparently unique way in which my particular charger constantly cycles the charge between the batteries. But you're right, of course, that the two house batts. are paralled via the switch so it really doesn't matter. Perhaps the installer felt it was healthier for each battery in the bank to have its own direct charge even if paralled, or maybe as a backup in the event the switch was set anywhere other than both as you say. Whichever the case, he opted to use the three charging ports for each of the two house batts plus the (separately switched) eng batt, and then use a VSR relay to charge the genset start batt. It seems to have worked well thus far, so I'm not inclined to mess with it. But talking it through helps my understanding, so thanks.
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Old 11-06-2018, 08:48   #140
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What count as a cycle (battery life)

Usually a multi bank charger will split the charge power between the banks, but charge them simultaneously. It’s a good idea on those chargers to either tie the charge posts together or to run separate cables to each battery, bank whichever, this reduces the current that goes through one post and may make life easier on the charger.
With my Sterling Pro charge Ultra I ran a charge line to both banks even though they are always ganged into one with the battery selector switch.
My Magnum however only has one charge post, so I connected it to the bigger of the two banks and it will charge both banks, as long as the switch is left on Both.
Solar has only one post, so it goes to the smaller bank, but charges both if the switch is set to both.
Alternator is I think connected to the switch and will charge whatever is selected, I think.
Long story short, different things are connected to different banks, but everything always gets charged as long as Both is selected.
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Old 11-06-2018, 11:09   #141
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Re: What count as a cycle (battery life)

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Usually a multi bank charger will split the charge power between the banks, but charge them simultaneously. It’s a good idea on those chargers to either tie the charge posts together or to run separate cables to each battery, bank whichever, this reduces the current that goes through one post and may make life easier on the charger.
With my Sterling Pro charge Ultra I ran a charge line to both banks even though they are always ganged into one with the battery selector switch.
My Magnum however only has one charge post, so I connected it to the bigger of the two banks and it will charge both banks, as long as the switch is left on Both.
Solar has only one post, so it goes to the smaller bank, but charges both if the switch is set to both.
Alternator is I think connected to the switch and will charge whatever is selected, I think.
Long story short, different things are connected to different banks, but everything always gets charged as long as Both is selected.
This is making a lot more sense to me now, and probably explains why separate charging cables were run to each battery. The Xantrex that I have -- which provides a full charge to each battery separately -- seems like an outlier. I looked at the manual for its successor -- the TrueCharge2 -- and it sounds like it splits the charge like most apparently do, incl. your Sterling Pro. But splitting the charge bwtn my 2 house batts & eng start (3 8D's/765AH) would mean I would need a total of ~150A of charging capacity to meet the 0.2C recommendation. Some, like the TrueCharge2, can be paralleled together, but not sure about the Sterling. For some reason it seems like it's hard to find stand-alone chargers these days over 60A.
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Old 11-06-2018, 11:11   #142
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Re: What count as a cycle (battery life)

Each discharge and the subsequent charge is a cycle. Life, in cycles, is typically determined statistically under controlled conditions. If you don't know the details of the test then the figure is not very useful.

Keep them charged, wet, not subjected to cold or hot temps and minimize the impact of vibration. I'm quite OCD here.

I don't track life and the first time they give trouble, ie don't hold a charge, or discharge too quickly, then I subject them to a 'float test'. If they don't float then I replace them...
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Old 11-06-2018, 13:31   #143
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Re: What count as a cycle (battery life)

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The Xantrex that I have -- which provides a full charge to each battery separately -- seems like an outlier.
Definitely, maybe unique.

> Some, like the TrueCharge2, can be paralleled together, but not sure about the Sterling. For some reason it seems like it's hard to find stand-alone chargers these days over 60A.

You can and should parallel concurrent chargers, and their split outputs to get more current.
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Old 11-06-2018, 14:11   #144
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Re: What count as a cycle (battery life)

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Definitely, maybe unique.

> Some, like the TrueCharge2, can be paralleled together, but not sure about the Sterling. For some reason it seems like it's hard to find stand-alone chargers these days over 60A.

You can and should parallel concurrent chargers, and their split outputs to get more current.
Not all of them have this capability but I haven't researched it beyond the TrueCharge2.
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Old 11-06-2018, 16:13   #145
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Re: What count as a cycle (battery life)

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You can and should parallel concurrent chargers, and their split outputs to get more current.

Right now, both my Magnum and Sterling are in float, but both charging, as is my Solar in float also.
If I cranked the engine, then of course the alternator would also be charging.
As it would go into Bulk, it would be the only one charging, the ones in float just go to zero amps of course cause they are at a lower voltage.
Actually in float since it’s such a low current draw, usually only one, the Sterling is supplying power, it apparently leads for some reason.

However if the bank is down, then everybody is charging. Bank couldn’t accept it, but somewhere North of 400 amps is possible With everybody online, if it could.

So I have four charge sources, and they all play well with each other and do not interfere, different types and different manufacturers.
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Old 11-06-2018, 17:06   #146
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Re: What count as a cycle (battery life)

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Right now, both my Magnum and Sterling are in float, but both charging, as is my Solar in float also.
If I cranked the engine, then of course the alternator would also be charging.
As it would go into Bulk, it would be the only one charging, the ones in float just go to zero amps of course cause they are at a lower voltage.
Actually in float since it’s such a low current draw, usually only one, the Sterling is supplying power, it apparently leads for some reason.

However if the bank is down, then everybody is charging. Bank couldn’t accept it, but somewhere North of 400 amps is possible With everybody online, if it could.

So I have four charge sources, and they all play well with each other and do not interfere, different types and different manufacturers.
Ok, so you're effectively paralleling your charging sources by simply having them on simultaneously. I thought what John61 meant was physically paralleling two chargers together in order to double the amperage capacity.

Does the Magnum generally serve as a backup or do you usually have it on along with the Sterling? I thought you had an external regulator for your alternator which would also cause it to float when your batts are topped up. Why would the alt be supplying higher voltage unless it was internally regulated and just putting out a constant 14.4v (like mine)? Either way it's good to know no harm can come in the event one has their engine/alt running at the same time as their charger(s).
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Old 11-06-2018, 18:13   #147
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Re: What count as a cycle (battery life)

I did mean that.

Multiple outputs, chargers, same type, different whatever.

Nothing to do with "capability" you just do it. Some say you have to, leaving unjumpered is bad.
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Old 11-06-2018, 19:24   #148
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Re: What count as a cycle (battery life)

I will charge with the Magnum (125 amps) and the Sterling (60 amps) both in the morning when I run the generator, that gives me 185 amps charging of course minus the 15 amps or so house load. The generator has an electric pump and big fan both DC.
Anyway after about 15 or maybe 20 mins or so the acceptance rate of the batteries is down enough so that I can start the Watermaker.
I do have a Balmar 614 external regulator, but it wakes up in bulk mode and has to run bulk mode for 15 min if memory serves, regardless of battery SOC, when it will drop to absorption for another 15 min, then it can go into float. I have set bulk and absorption to the same voltage there is no difference, meaning it stays in absorption for 30 min. I’ll fix that with programming one day, I don’t have a good handle on the 614 yet, I’ll get there eventually.
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Old 12-06-2018, 05:13   #149
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Re: What count as a cycle (battery life)

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I do have a Balmar 614 external regulator, but it wakes up in bulk mode and has to run bulk mode for 15 min if memory serves, regardless of battery SOC, when it will drop to absorption for another 15 min, then it can go into float.
Another situation where charging lingo actually means something. Your regulator will only be in "bulk" (actual bulk not made up definitions) until the voltage hits the bv target. At this point the regulators is "voltage limited" or in absorption. If you're using the factory settings (not a great idea) this will hold the bv voltage (let's call this absorption #1) for 18 minutes. It then goes to Av (let's call this absorption #2) for another 18 minutes.

Quote:
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I have set bulk and absorption to the same voltage there is no difference, meaning it stays in absorption for 30 min. I’ll fix that with programming one day, I don’t have a good handle on the 614 yet, I’ll get there eventually.

It would be interesting if you did but bv and Av must have a 0.1V difference between them. So for a Lifeline bank you might be at 14.5 bv for 18 minutes then 14.4V Av for 18 minutes. 36 minutes of absorption is not enough for any battery and will result in premature-floatulation.

Don't be afraid to custom program your Balmar regulator...

Programming a Balmar Regulator




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Old 12-06-2018, 08:12   #150
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What count as a cycle (battery life)

If it takes .1v difference, then I’m likely at 14.4 and 14.3 respectively.
Within tolerance for absorption voltage.
Yes I was discussing what it will do with the bank at 100% SOC, so it will make target voltage at a low output of course.

I’m not afraid of the thing, and I have it mounted to the front face of the outside of my engine compartment, so it’s inside of the salon, not in the engine compt. and easily accessible, so I can program it.
I initially had it inside of the compt, but thought that may not be a good idea and programming was a pain as it was hard to get to and see, plus all the noise of the engine running.

I don’t really think of it as a primary battery charging system so I haven’t figured the thing out completely.

What would you recommend for timer settings and fbv and ffl settings, 165 amp mark Grasser alt, serpentine belt and a 660 ah Lifeline bank? I have belt manager set to 4 and have turned down alternator temp to 90c if memory is correct. I don’t mind derating to protect and gain long life.

Currently it trips to float way too soon, I assume best to adjust ffl and not timer?

Why is there a separate bulk? What does that achieve? Should I set voltage above absorption voltage for bulk? I set as close as close as possible as I can’t understand the purpose of having a different setting for bulk, I think of bulk as just being current limited, and your out of bulk when absorption voltage is made and you go from current limited, to voltage limited.

Reading article now, probably should have read it first before responding.Click image for larger version

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