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Old 07-09-2014, 16:35   #16
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re: Westerbeke 4-91 Alternator not Charging

If you left the batteries on for an extended period of time and they were reading 2V when you return there is a high likelihood you have trashed your batteries.

Depending on how far the boat relocation is you could get a new battery, wire it into the starter battery slot and disconnect the house.

It does not appear that you have an alternator problem so I don't see the need to buy a new alternator. You do have a regulator problem and it could be as easy as replacing the regulator.

If you are not comfortable with the system you might try finding an electrical mechanic.
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Old 07-09-2014, 18:47   #17
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re: Westerbeke 4-91 Alternator not Charging

"If you left the batteries on for an extended period of time and they were reading 2V when you return there is a high likelihood you have trashed your batteries.

Depending on how far the boat relocation is you could get a new battery, wire it into the starter battery slot and disconnect the house.

It does not appear that you have an alternator problem so I don't see the need to buy a new alternator. You do have a regulator problem and it could be as easy as replacing the regulator.

If you are not comfortable with the system you might try finding an electrical mechanic."

Hi Dan,
thanks I for replying again. I may have done damage to the starter battery that was working ok but is 3 years old.
I don't have far to move the boat, maybe 2 miles at most. So I could really just start it and run over there without a problem. I did disconnect the old house batteries so that won't drag the starter battery down.
The existing 3 wire alternator does charge, we proved it earlier. I think it may still have the internal regulator since it still has the connector where the regulator usually is. The ones with the regulator removed seem to have wires coming out of the hole and no female spade terminals built in. If I read the wiring diagrams for the normal 3 wire Delco, I should put a wire from the right RPM. I'll try again. I do like the one wire alternator that is so simple, just connect one wire to the battery and it charges.
I am still learning this system and it seems that there are better regulators and battery managers available now so I will continue educating myself in how it works and what is current technology. I may start looking at others at the club and asking some more knowledgeable than myself.
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Old 07-09-2014, 18:58   #18
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re: Westerbeke 4-91 Alternator not Charging

Dan, I have learned a lot from your posts and hope you will continue. I haven't given up on the existing regulator and it can even be repaired by APC. I just need to verify every existing wire to be sure it is routed properly and that takes time. I think I remember one of your posts saying that you would rather do "skill building" than pay someone else, can't remember the exact quote, but liked it.
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Old 08-09-2014, 04:33   #19
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re: Westerbeke 4-91 Alternator not Charging

Don't get focused on the "one wire" alternator. As MaineSail says, "These alternators are dumber than a box of rocks" - They won't do you system any good as they don't do sensing well.

You'd be better off saving the money to replace/repair the 1021A if in fact it is not working.

When you get back to this it might be a good idea to isolate one battery bank - start or house until the alternator charging is figured out.

We can work on putting together a system diagram and then "simplify" the installation by bypassing all the non-essential stuff until we have just alternator, regulator and (1) battery. Then we can add components back in and see if there is anything not working.

I think you have what was probably a state of the art battery management system 5 years ago or so. The good news is while there are more "modern" versions of the stuff you have the stuff you have should all work.

The first thing is to figure out if the current alternator is internally regulated or not.

We also need a P/N or any identifying marks off the small black box mounted below the current sensor when you get to it.
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Old 08-09-2014, 21:40   #20
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re: Westerbeke 4-91 Alternator not Charging

Did make some progress today. Found out the small black box was supposed to be a voltage regulator the PO put in after a failed attempt to get the APC 1021a hooked up and working (it had the numbers 1710 on the side and what looks like 9H6 on the bottom). I had put the starter battery on solar a few days ago after it was discharged and today it had come up and the engine started. I tried using the APC regulator without getting any charge so I took the Sense wire to a hot wire and it charged 14 volts at idle and overcharged if the throttle was pushed up over 1000rpm. I charged the battery and was able to stop and restart successfully. I don't want to burn anything up overcharging the system and will probable make another attempt to wire the APC correctly, tracing all the wires again to be sure it is hooked up right. I am a little puzzled as to how the box above the regulator interacts with it. I think it is called a Battery Voltage Sensor.
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Old 08-09-2014, 21:43   #21
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re: Westerbeke 4-91 Alternator not Charging

APC alternator current sensor is the other sensor I was referring to. Not sure how it fits in.
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Old 08-09-2014, 22:09   #22
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re: Westerbeke 4-91 Alternator not Charging

I don't know yet but I am "wildy" guessing that it is the sensor for the two battery banks.

When "charge" voltage is sensed it "commands" the red box to parallel the batteries - But at this point that is a bit of speculation.

So if teh small black regulator was added it could be because the 1021A may be failed.

Just to clarify - This setup has never worked for you in the past, right?
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Old 09-09-2014, 00:07   #23
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re: Westerbeke 4-91 Alternator not Charging

Here is a thread from last year about these regulators, and someone was considerate enough to scan the manuals:

Original Next Step Model #1019 Regulator

IMHO, with a confused situation like this I would give serious thought to wiring the original voltage regulator back in and then when you have that system up and working, THEN try to troubleshoot this new one. It should be relatively simple and straightforward to put the old one back in the circuit.
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Old 09-09-2014, 00:32   #24
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re: Westerbeke 4-91 Alternator not Charging

Quote:
Originally Posted by MBWhite View Post
Here is a thread from last year about these regulators, and someone was considerate enough to scan the manuals:

Original Next Step Model #1019 Regulator

IMHO, with a confused situation like this I would give serious thought to wiring the original voltage regulator back in and then when you have that system up and working, THEN try to troubleshoot this new one. It should be relatively simple and straightforward to put the old one back in the circuit.
Excellent reference. Post 7 has a great pdf for the 1021 including tips and tricks, like if the field wire shorted to ground the fuse blows!

If Marvin's 1021A is not working it could be as simple as a blown fuse!
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Old 09-09-2014, 08:43   #25
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re: Westerbeke 4-91 Alternator not Charging

Thanks Dan and MB. I printed the APC 1021a manual and am digesting it. Look forward to next trip to boat to check that fuse and get it wired up properly to see if it will work. The Westerbeke runs so sweet and smooth, it was talking to me saying I want to go somewhere. Fuel is still leaking at the throttle shaft, but not more than a drip and I catch that and put it back in the tank after filtering. That's on another subscription (?) and will wait till I get the charging working.
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Old 09-09-2014, 09:39   #26
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re: Westerbeke 4-91 Alternator not Charging

Make sure you take note of the pin out difference between 1021 and 1021A

I am guessing the little black regulator has the ground wires attached to it that were supposed to go to the 1021A - meter them to be sure...

I noticed them in the earlier photos and thought how weird it was to have two grounds connected to that little box - I presume they are grounds because they are both black.

I am presuming if one were to wire that little regulator right it would have field, sense and ground...

Here is a very weak signal strength Google search for the 1710 number on the little black regulator. It could be a regulator for a Ford 1710 tractor.

Ford Tractor Voltage Regulator
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Old 09-09-2014, 10:17   #27
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re: Westerbeke 4-91 Alternator not Charging

You are making some progress. The APC box that says alternator current sensor is to feed an APC battery monitor. The APC stuff is good technology from the 1980s, but I don't think it is supported any more. The black box looks like a simple automotive regulator--you can find a replacement on ebay for less than $15.

If you want to motor the boat for an hour, you can just leave it as is and recharge the batteries when you arrive. If you want to go longer, put an automotive tail light bulb in series with your field jumper--that should limit the field current and cut the charging voltage down.
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Old 10-09-2014, 20:19   #28
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re: Westerbeke 4-91 Alternator not Charging

With the newly downloaded APC manual and recent advice I set out to wire the APC 1021a properly. I rechecked all wires and checked the fuse inside. The fuse was good but somewhat corroded on one end. I cleaned the contacts and felt good about. I started the engine and checked the voltage gauge but then smelled smoke and had to shut things down. Turns out I had the #5 wire wrong, should have been field and I had a + voltage wire on there. It burned up a resistor that I will try to replace. So two steps forward one step backward. One of you suggested putting a tail light in the field when full fielding it to the positive on the battery to reduce the voltage and I tried that. It worked and I could run up to 1200 rpm and still be at 14-15 volts. I am looking at the APC site trying to find out the rating on the R1 resistor but haven't found it yet. It is burned enough to make it difficult to see the colored rings on it. I can see R2 and others, maybe they are the same. If anyone had a APC 1021A and would be willing to open it up and look you could tell me the color of the rings or if it is the same as R2 or another one. I saw on the APC site they will trouble shoot it for $75 and then $125 an hour to repair, so I wonder it I had to spend that I might be better to upgrade with newer technology. Will try and find the resistor first.
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Old 10-09-2014, 20:28   #29
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re: Westerbeke 4-91 Alternator not Charging

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Old 11-09-2014, 10:57   #30
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re: Westerbeke 4-91 Alternator not Charging

Went to Spectronics nearby and they tried to ID the resistor but nothing for sure. So got 4 resistors that may be it and they suggested use the one with a yellow band first as it is the highest resistance. Total cost $.50. Also went to local West Marine and looked online at Balmar ARS-5. Seems like a good replacement and could get additional 2 years warranty for another $49 if I read it right. Just called APC and left a message asking for the #1 resistor rating, will see if they call back. Looked on their site forum and didn't see anything or how to register and ask myself there. Not real happy with APC right now.
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