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Old 06-07-2018, 14:37   #76
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Re: Viability of electric only propulsion in 2018 - is there a good option after all?

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
If you do a ton of offshore miles, that may be helpful for house loads but for propulsion...

10amps at 12v is only 120watts.

Electric motors running at 12kw will require 100hrs of generation at 10amps to put that into the batteries (Assuming an unrealistic 100% efficiency).

If you start talking about more typical coastal cruising patterns where the motors come into play more, you will be lucky to get 3-4hrs of towing in a day (nothing at anchor or in a slip)...so the vast majority of cruising boats don't bother with them.

House loads and propulsion are totally different animals.
Umm... did you not read my last thoughts in that post?

Quote:
None the less, it supplied all our domestic power needs. Quite useful, but clearly not capable of recharging a depleted propulsion bank.
Preaching to the choir is a waste of bandwidth...

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Old 06-07-2018, 16:24   #77
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Re: Viability of electric only propulsion in 2018 - is there a good option after all?

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Augi,

I answered your post with quite a bit of info, but the CF session crashed and it was lost, apparently. So I'll answer later, just wanted to let you know.
Hi BB,

Follow up question:

On your new ride, did you consider on one side going with a bigger diesel than on the like size / weight, performance, cruising cat, for example Outremer, and on the other side go with EP? If yes, why did you go with all EP as you have described?

As another the poster on this thread suggested that seems like the best of all possible worlds assuming all the issues regarding having an asymmetrical arrangement can be addressed / dealt with.

Then you always have the diesel for safety and the range and can use the EP only a lot of the time.

As the other poster suggested on this thread from a complexity or cost standpoint, it would not be a lot different than the all diesel arrangement put on a similar performance cruising cats, like Outremer when the owner decides to have a generator:

You would have two diesel engines(diesel propulsion and generator), and 1 electric motor. You could keep the weight about the same as the typical all diesel arrangement because the electric motor would weigh less than the typical 2nd diesel engine for propulsion on the all diesel arrangement, so you could distribute that weight savings, to a bigger diesel for propulsion, and / or more batteries, and / or bigger generator and / or more solar panels as seemed to best suit your intended uses, without effecting performance when sailing.

The above seems to make a lot of sense. You get about the same benefits as from the EP on the solution you chose for your new ride, you would have similar range as with the typical all diesel arrangement, plenty of power if you were in a difficult situation, for example if you found yourself in the situation of going against the current, and / or against the tide, and / or against the wind and / or in a difficult, short period between the waves sea state. You would have a broader, more favorable power and torque curve resulting from having both EP and diesel propulsion available, rather than just one or the other.
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Old 06-07-2018, 17:45   #78
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Re: Viability of electric only propulsion in 2018 - is there a good option after all?

Hi Augi,

Sorry for delay getting back to you on your previous post, I'm just starting to feel better after a tussle since last weekend with billions of influenza viri. I won

I'll try and summarise our system & then address your question re parallel hybrid.

Our cat is ( or will be when launched) a 15 meter LOA, 8 meter BOA 12.5 to 13 Ton cruising displacement, performance liveaboard boat. I would say it is fairly high windage with 9 sqm of flat frontal surface area. The hull design is slippery and it will sail very well in light winds. We have a hull resistance analysis, so we know the numbers on how much power it takes, either sail or propulsion by whatever technology, to push her at various hull speeds. Our EP system has 2 x Oceanvolt SD15 Servoprop motors with OV controllers, 24.5kW of Valence LiMnPo4 batts, Victron Multiplus 5000 charger/inverter & Victron battery/system monitoring, an Eniquest 16kW DC genset based on a Yanmar 3YM30 diesel engine (military specification for reliability), and just over 4 kW of solar using e-Arche 325w panels with Victron MPPT controllers.

In the early phase of our investigations, we did indeed seriously consider the option of a parallel hybrid solution from the UK & engaged in detailed discussions with the vendor. They could not provide a solution for the Beta 45 turbo which we thought was the best engine choice, and aside from that we did not feel comfortable with the support issues, and some of the system details on the electric side of things. There are some engineering considerations to overcome in this approach, it is not as easy as just bolting together any old diesel with any electric motor. There are not alot of established solutions for parallel hybrid, so this seemed quite bleeding edge.

I know that will sound funny, since we decided on a serial EP solution, but actually once we checked OV references looking for unreliability issues or patterns of system failure, and found none, that began to change our perspective. OV have well over a couple of hundred of installations, and the reliability of all their chosen components seems very good.

The next question was, was the OV EP powerful enough to deal with adverse conditions? If the answer to this question turned out to be yes, then it seemed to us that a parallel hybrid was a solution to a non problem.

We looked at an analysis of our hull re wind resistance + water resistance to asses the actual demands & we had the help of a good Naval Architect. On the side was a look at tides and currents since we intend to cruise the Alaska to Mexico coast for a couple of years, and they get some interesting tidal currents over there.

We will be able to make headway into 40 to 45 knot winds and sea state with our system at full power on batteries. This will only be for 45 minutes or so, but we believe the most serious and realistic scenario is getting out of a dangerous anchorage and needing to get upwind for that. If we did not have as good a sailing boat that is setup for heavy weather sailing, we would either boost the battery capacity, or go to a bigger DC genset.

But interestingly, we expect to motor continuously on the DC genset into 35 knot winds and any current we are likely to encounter. Dropping the power down with electric from full power does not incur that much of a reduction in thrust.

We will be able to motor on just the output of the solar at about 4.5 to 5 knots for 4 to 5 hours a day, and save on the batteries until they are needed.

The Servoprop regen solution is I believe a game changer, and you will be seeing some very interesting developments in this area in the coming months. Expect to hear of some very highly respected sailors adopting this solution,...... you heard it here first
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Old 06-07-2018, 19:25   #79
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Re: Viability of electric only propulsion in 2018 - is there a good option after all?

Very viable. 3 years ago I took my electric expedition launch on a 2000 mile trip on the Mississippi Loop. I am now working on a bigger electric boat to do the Great Loop.


Average distance was close to 50 miles a day. Longest day running was 5am to midnight. Longest distance 100 miles. Batteries are recharged by solar. My battery reserve criteria was that I had to have enough power for the microwave and coffee maker at the end of the day.



Coast Guard was miffed that I didn't have a fire extinguisher. I won the argument that I didn't need one because my galley was all electric and my motor was under water.


That 2000 miler was powered by a custom 80# Minn Kota. Zero problems with the motor and no notable wear when I tore it down later. It isn't a trolling motor, it's a cruising motor! There are plenty of motor options, but I wanted to be able to adjust prop depth and to be able to change a prop, if needed, without getting wet. The Mississippi can be rough on props.


ELCO and others also have outboards, if you can use that. If you can use pods, ask the idiot captain of that American Eagle "steamboat" that tried to run me down. Boy, is that huge thing maneuverable with those electric motors.


I thought about replacing the diesel with electric on the new boat, using the same shaft and prop, but I don't like holes in my boat. If you do, check out ELCO or various homebrew solutions.


Your problem is not the motor, it is the power. Batteries have to be recharged. I used solar on my travelling boat. Running batteries-only on my day boat I can easily do 20 miles.


You also need an efficient hull. I start with sloops and modify the hulls, then I don't need much power.



For light weight and long range, it is hard to beat a diesel, but with and electric motor and solar, you can just keep on going, even on the Mississippi where it is a long way between fuel pumps.
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Old 07-07-2018, 03:37   #80
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Re: Viability of electric only propulsion in 2018 - is there a good option after all?

After a lot of research and running a lot of calculations I have confirmed that electric drive is a viable option for a sailboat BUT at a much higher cost and with much more complex system if you want a sailboat with the same range and power as one powered by a diesel.

To have any range at all under battery you need a large, heavy and/or expensive battery bank.

To get the extended range you have to install a generator. How big and how expensive? Using my boat for an example, it comes with a 58 HP diesel. Motoring in calm conditions at a modest speed will use less than half that. So what size generator to power the electric motor?

I think it would be foolish to size the generator for the best case scenario. What if your batteries are depleted, you're running off the generator and you need full power for an emergency maneuver or you need to punch into strong winds and waves to make harbor before a storm. In that case you will need a generator with capacity comparable to the diesel engine, about 40 kW. Anyone priced a 40 kW generator lately?
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Old 07-07-2018, 06:12   #81
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Re: Viability of electric only propulsion in 2018 - is there a good option after all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Sun King View Post
Very viable. 3 years ago I took my electric expedition launch on a 2000 mile trip on the Mississippi Loop. I am now working on a bigger electric boat to do the Great Loop.

Average distance was close to 50 miles a day. Longest day running was 5am to midnight. Longest distance 100 miles. Batteries are recharged by solar. My battery reserve criteria was that I had to have enough power for the microwave and coffee maker at the end of the day.

Is that down the Mississippi (with the current) and then back up the Ten-Tom (no current to speak of), something like that?

Your longest day was 19 hours? What distance? Was that the 100 mile day?

How many hours underway on your average days?

How much solar?

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Old 07-07-2018, 06:27   #82
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Viability of electric only propulsion in 2018 - is there a good option after all?

Running up the St Johnís yesterday, I saw the answer!
It IS viable, itís apparently already being done on large car carriers!Click image for larger version

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Old 07-07-2018, 07:20   #83
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Re: Viability of electric only propulsion in 2018 - is there a good option after all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Hi Augi,

Sorry for delay getting back to you on your previous post, I'm just starting to feel better after a tussle since last weekend with billions of influenza viri. I won

I'll try and summarise our system & then address your question re parallel hybrid.

Our cat is ( or will be when launched) a 15 meter LOA, 8 meter BOA 12.5 to 13 Ton cruising displacement, performance liveaboard boat. I would say it is fairly high windage with 9 sqm of flat frontal surface area. The hull design is slippery and it will sail very well in light winds. We have a hull resistance analysis, so we know the numbers on how much power it takes, either sail or propulsion by whatever technology, to push her at various hull speeds. Our EP system has 2 x Oceanvolt SD15 Servoprop motors with OV controllers, 24.5kW of Valence LiMnPo4 batts, Victron Multiplus 5000 charger/inverter & Victron battery/system monitoring, an Eniquest 16kW DC genset based on a Yanmar 3YM30 diesel engine (military specification for reliability), and just over 4 kW of solar using e-Arche 325w panels with Victron MPPT controllers.

In the early phase of our investigations, we did indeed seriously consider the option of a parallel hybrid solution from the UK & engaged in detailed discussions with the vendor. They could not provide a solution for the Beta 45 turbo which we thought was the best engine choice, and aside from that we did not feel comfortable with the support issues, and some of the system details on the electric side of things. There are some engineering considerations to overcome in this approach, it is not as easy as just bolting together any old diesel with any electric motor. There are not alot of established solutions for parallel hybrid, so this seemed quite bleeding edge.

I know that will sound funny, since we decided on a serial EP solution, but actually once we checked OV references looking for unreliability issues or patterns of system failure, and found none, that began to change our perspective. OV have well over a couple of hundred of installations, and the reliability of all their chosen components seems very good.

The next question was, was the OV EP powerful enough to deal with adverse conditions? If the answer to this question turned out to be yes, then it seemed to us that a parallel hybrid was a solution to a non problem.

We looked at an analysis of our hull re wind resistance + water resistance to asses the actual demands & we had the help of a good Naval Architect. On the side was a look at tides and currents since we intend to cruise the Alaska to Mexico coast for a couple of years, and they get some interesting tidal currents over there.

We will be able to make headway into 40 to 45 knot winds and sea state with our system at full power on batteries. This will only be for 45 minutes or so, but we believe the most serious and realistic scenario is getting out of a dangerous anchorage and needing to get upwind for that. If we did not have as good a sailing boat that is setup for heavy weather sailing, we would either boost the battery capacity, or go to a bigger DC genset.

But interestingly, we expect to motor continuously on the DC genset into 35 knot winds and any current we are likely to encounter. Dropping the power down with electric from full power does not incur that much of a reduction in thrust.

We will be able to motor on just the output of the solar at about 4.5 to 5 knots for 4 to 5 hours a day, and save on the batteries until they are needed.

The Servoprop regen solution is I believe a game changer, and you will be seeing some very interesting developments in this area in the coming months. Expect to hear of some very highly respected sailors adopting this solution,...... you heard it here first
Hi BB,

Interesting you are choosing to sail the west coast of North America from Alaska to Mexico to start out.

I am a newbie, only recently certified to bareboat charter, and still getting experience before skippering. I have only sailed from Marina Del Rey to Catalina island but I am planning to sail from Oxnard (Channel Islands Harbor), in the summer and La Paz, Mexico in the winter. Therefore, I have been learning about what the conditions are like. That is going to be a good test for your EP rig, especially from San Francisco to the North. Looking forward to seeing your posts about your experiences on your new rig.

Best regards,

Augi
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Old 07-07-2018, 07:31   #84
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Re: Viability of electric only propulsion in 2018 - is there a good option after all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Sun King View Post
Very viable. 3 years ago I took my electric expedition launch on a 2000 mile trip on the Mississippi Loop. I am now working on a bigger electric boat to do the Great Loop.


Average distance was close to 50 miles a day. Longest day running was 5am to midnight. Longest distance 100 miles. Batteries are recharged by solar. My battery reserve criteria was that I had to have enough power for the microwave and coffee maker at the end of the day.



Coast Guard was miffed that I didn't have a fire extinguisher. I won the argument that I didn't need one because my galley was all electric and my motor was under water.


That 2000 miler was powered by a custom 80# Minn Kota. Zero problems with the motor and no notable wear when I tore it down later. It isn't a trolling motor, it's a cruising motor! There are plenty of motor options, but I wanted to be able to adjust prop depth and to be able to change a prop, if needed, without getting wet. The Mississippi can be rough on props.


ELCO and others also have outboards, if you can use that. If you can use pods, ask the idiot captain of that American Eagle "steamboat" that tried to run me down. Boy, is that huge thing maneuverable with those electric motors.


I thought about replacing the diesel with electric on the new boat, using the same shaft and prop, but I don't like holes in my boat. If you do, check out ELCO or various homebrew solutions.


Your problem is not the motor, it is the power. Batteries have to be recharged. I used solar on my travelling boat. Running batteries-only on my day boat I can easily do 20 miles.


You also need an efficient hull. I start with sloops and modify the hulls, then I don't need much power.



For light weight and long range, it is hard to beat a diesel, but with and electric motor and solar, you can just keep on going, even on the Mississippi where it is a long way between fuel pumps.

Nice. 4kt+ for sustained pure solar/electric operation? Not bad at all.


You SHOULD have a fire extinguisher. Galley fires, electrical fires, etc. In fact you should have two, a chemical or foam, and a CO2. Not talking about legal requirements here, talking about safety and fire/damage control. Even on a small launch, you can find room for two small fire extinguishers. **** happens, you know.


That's a pretty smart reason to go with the trolling motor. Lots of debris on the Mississippi, and it would suck to be disabled with a 24 barge tow coming down on you.



What voltage were you running? what type batteries, and how many? External controller for the motor, or no?



I assume you were running downriver? What was your speed through the water?
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Old 07-07-2018, 07:43   #85
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Re: Viability of electric only propulsion in 2018 - is there a good option after all?

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Running up the St Johnís yesterday, I saw the answer!
It IS viable, itís apparently already being done on large car carriers!Attachment 173198

Probably solar/electric assist to the diesel engine, to save fuel and cut down on the greenhouse. Nice PR move. Might save a few bucks, too. I doubt that it is set up to run off batteries with the diesel engine shut down. Usually the diesel is connected in direct drive to the prop with no reversing gear or reduction gear, so no way to declutch. Main Engine is probably in the neighborhood of 12,000hp. Any meaningful electric-only operation would require a hyoooooge bank. Probably custom built FLA batteries of rather enormous size.



Good catch, though. Interesting, yeah.
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Old 07-07-2018, 08:35   #86
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Re: Viability of electric only propulsion in 2018 - is there a good option after all?

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Originally Posted by The Sun King View Post
Very viable. 3 years ago I took my electric expedition launch on a 2000 mile trip on the Mississippi Loop. I am now working on a bigger electric boat to do the Great Loop.

.........

For light weight and long range, it is hard to beat a diesel, but with and electric motor and solar, you can just keep on going, even on the Mississippi where it is a long way between fuel pumps.
Do you have information on the boat? Maybe a website or specs?

We've done the part from St. Louis to the Ohio River a couple of times an at just enough power to maintain steerage, we were doing well over our normal hull speed due to the push of the current...We had 100 mile days with less than 10 hours under way. So hard to make much of your numbers without more details.
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Old 07-07-2018, 08:37   #87
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Re: Viability of electric only propulsion in 2018 - is there a good option after all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
....

Our cat is ( or will be when launched) a 15 meter LOA, 8 meter BOA 12.5 to 13 Ton cruising displacement, performance liveaboard boat. I would say it is fairly high windage with 9 sqm of flat frontal surface area. The hull design is slippery and it will sail very well in light winds. We have a hull resistance analysis, so we know the numbers on how much power it takes, either sail or propulsion by whatever technology, to push her at various hull speeds. Our EP system has 2 x Oceanvolt SD15 Servoprop motors with OV controllers, 24.5kW of Valence LiMnPo4 batts, Victron Multiplus 5000 charger/inverter & Victron battery/system monitoring, an Eniquest 16kW DC genset based on a Yanmar 3YM30 diesel engine (military specification for reliability), and just over 4 kW of solar using e-Arche 325w panels with Victron MPPT controllers.
......
So when is this boat going to be in operation? I've seen your posts about it going back to around 2015 that it's under construction.
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Old 07-07-2018, 08:49   #88
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Viability of electric only propulsion in 2018 - is there a good option after all?

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Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster View Post
Probably solar/electric assist to the diesel engine, to save fuel and cut down on the greenhouse. Nice PR move. Might save a few bucks, too. I doubt that it is set up to run off batteries with the diesel engine shut down. Usually the diesel is connected in direct drive to the prop with no reversing gear or reduction gear, so no way to declutch. Main Engine is probably in the neighborhood of 12,000hp. Any meaningful electric-only operation would require a hyoooooge bank. Probably custom built FLA batteries of rather enormous size.



Good catch, though. Interesting, yeah.


I posted it as a joke, however it is real, it exists. I seriously doubt for propulsion although likely they will say it is, Iíd assume a PR stunt by somebody big, Sony or Toyota etc.
However it may just well take care of house loads while In port and may cut way down on generator time, depending on bank and Solar Array size.

See that is what all this electric for propulsion really gets down to, not motors, that was done a Century ago and in large scale production in U Boats, and not in battery banks, again a Century ago in U Boats.
Itís the source of power to begin with, that is the issue, that has never been done successfully, solve that and you will have a viable solution, cause the motor and storage is a solved problem.
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Old 07-07-2018, 08:52   #89
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Re: Viability of electric only propulsion in 2018 - is there a good option after all?

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Old 07-07-2018, 09:10   #90
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Re: Viability of electric only propulsion in 2018 - is there a good option after all?

Well, we are going to try full electric in our 1989 Pacific Seacraft 34 foot sailboat when we pull out the 28 year old Yanmar 3HM35F 34HP diesel engine.

One huge advantage is I will actually be able to get into the area where they put unimportant inaccessible stuff that never needs servicing like rudder shaft seals, steering cables, seacocks etc. In 1989 they shipped a 4 foot tall mechanic with every new Seacraft 34 so it wasn't a big issue.

The new system will be something like a ~10kW brushless motor (we use propane in galley) and a small initial battery bank while we experiment a bit (I am a EE so like to tinker). I plan on hanging 600 watts of solar on each side of the boat from the lifelines (4 Renogy 160 watt flexible panels attached to 1/16" aluminum backing on each side). Probably another 600 watts from the Bimini.

I figure when sailing on a slight heel, half of these panels will somewhat be facing the sun, proving maybe 60% of full solar output. That would be around 500 watts. On our custom built RV I put in 1440 watts of solar which even in the PNW and flat mounted gives us 1200 watts in the full sun and allows us to run our small 6000 BTU air conditioner under solar power. I use a Midnite Classic for that and probably will use a Midnite Kid for this ( marine version, since I already have a spare one of those).

Worst case it doesn't work and we go back to diesel but I want to give it a shot. Everyone said we really couldn't build our own RV but it turned out quite well.
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