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Old 04-03-2014, 07:15   #16
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Re: Understanding 220v

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
not much different to the devices receiving it.

dave
Uh oh... Look out...

It's Professor Electron again!
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Old 04-03-2014, 07:22   #17
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Re: Understanding 220v

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Depending on what AC equipment he has on board, not all of it will work on 60 cycles versus 50.
I'm retired Army and lived for a while in Germany. All our US 60hz stuff worked on 50 Hz, but mechanical clocks etc of course didn't keep time, but all the electronic stuff worked.
Microwave maybe and the airconditioner, how much AC powered "stuff" is usually on a boat? 60 Hz microwaves run at 50Hz sounded a little different, 50Hz hum as opposed to 60 Hz hum I suppose, but seemed to work fine for the three years we were over there.
A 5000W or so 110V to 220V transformer is cheap and easy and your not modifying anything on the boat
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Old 04-03-2014, 07:29   #18
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Re: Understanding 220v

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Originally Posted by HappyMdRSailor View Post
Uh oh... Look out...

It's Professor Electron again!

perhaps you might to educate yourself with Single-phase power systems : Polyphase Ac Circuits

BY THE WAY, say I connect my ( isolated) ground pin on my oscilloscope to the hot 2 of a "split phase" and the probe to hot1, describe the resulting wave id see


dave
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Old 04-03-2014, 07:40   #19
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Re: Understanding 220v

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
perhaps you might to educate yourself with Single-phase power systems : Polyphase Ac Circuits

BY THE WAY, say I connect my ( isolated) ground pin on my oscilloscope to the hot 2 of a "split phase" and the probe to hot1, describe the resulting wave id see


dave
Man.... I was JUST KIDDING!!!!
You makka me tink hard....

I know all about polyphase... Building 25 hp converters n stuff....

answer: straight line.... (guess)
I do have a silly scope....
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Old 04-03-2014, 07:51   #20
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Re: Understanding 220v

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Originally Posted by HappyMdRSailor View Post
Man.... I was JUST KIDDING!!!!
You makka me tink hard....

I know all about polyphase... Building 25 hp converters n stuff....

answer: straight line.... (guess)
I do have a silly scope....
The confusion of course is some in the US called split phase , 2 phase. IN fact split phase is actually single phase. i.e. both waveforms cross at the same point in time.

Hence if I take a simple resistive element , say like a heating plate, from UK 240VAC land, it will quite happily work, if I connect it to a 220 VAC split phase, i.e. hot to hot neutral to hot.

Of course certain things will generate/release the magic smoke. SO I wouldn't advise this without knowing "stuff"

dave
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Old 04-03-2014, 07:54   #21
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Re: Understanding 220v

Neko was a European boat with 220/50 wiring throughout, including the generator. When we brought her to the US, we added a separate 110/60 circuit from shorepower inlet, to combi inverter charger to US style 110 outlet plugs. It did not add much weight - inverter/chargers are light. And now we don't have to worry about which appliances will work on what power or what shore power is available. We can invert to either power and charge our batteries on either power.
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Old 04-03-2014, 07:54   #22
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Re: Understanding 220v

Guys,

aren't we getting lost here a bit?

In Europe you have 230 VAC 50 Hz. Everywhere in the US you have 230 VAC 60 Hz available. So what's the big deal?

I am now close to US waters, and aside from my "reverse polarity" indicator lighting up when I connect to 230 Volts with two hot legs, not much is happening. In Germany, every plug is reversible, i.e. you never know where the hot or neutral leg will be, and therefore all equipment is built such that it really doesn't matter.

The thing you have to watch out for is pumps and compressors. Power input increases by 3rd power of the frequency, and therefore a 50 Hz system might become overloaded if run at 60 Hz. I got a dual frequency compressor from Webasto, and fortunately Japan is half 50 and half 60 Hz, which is why you can buy Iwaki pumps which are suitable for both frequencies.

New style (electronically commutated) pumps don't care about frequency, so you can use them anywhere.

I have yet to figure out where potential problems could lurk. NOWHERE in the whole boat do I have a piece of equipment which has a neutral-earth connection - and if so, the GFCI would trip instantly. If it doesn't, you are good to go - assuming your marina has the ground conductor connected (they usually do).

Oliver
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Old 04-03-2014, 08:19   #23
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Re: Understanding 220v

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Originally Posted by Sailmonkey View Post
Correct, US 220 is two hot legs of an inverse phase, EU 220 is one hot leg. Very different.
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Originally Posted by HappyMdRSailor View Post
Bingo....

I was just agreeing with the "general difference" in description....

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
not much different to the devices receiving it.

dave
Agreed.... POTENTIAL = ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
The confusion of course is some in the US called split phase , 2 phase. IN fact split phase is actually single phase. i.e. both waveforms cross at the same point in time.

Hence if I take a simple resistive element , say like a heating plate, from UK 240VAC land, it will quite happily work, if I connect it to a 220 VAC split phase, i.e. hot to hot neutral to hot.

Of course certain things will generate/release the magic smoke. SO I wouldn't advise this without knowing "stuff"

dave
Only difference is the bumps and frequency.... Plenty of my control systems are done on the 1/2 Euro plan = ground to hot

My project today is to tackle a 20hp motor 2-4 wye, hard wired for 440... breaking the 24 taps to bring out 9 leads....

Imma stop by and we can do it together....
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Old 04-03-2014, 08:29   #24
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Re: Understanding 220v

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Originally Posted by Sailmonkey View Post
Correct, US 220 is two hot legs of an inverse phase, EU 220 is one hot leg. Very different.
no such term " inverse phase". Phase is about timing. a 220 vac split phase system is a single phase system, the crossing point in time is the same for both Hot wires. The voltages are in inverse relationship when measured from the centre point.

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Old 04-03-2014, 08:35   #25
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Re: Understanding 220v

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Originally Posted by Oliver L. View Post
Guys,

aren't we getting lost here a bit?

In Europe you have 230 VAC 50 Hz. Everywhere in the US you have 230 VAC 60 Hz available. So what's the big deal?

I am now close to US waters, and aside from my "reverse polarity" indicator lighting up when I connect to 230 Volts with two hot legs, not much is happening. In Germany, every plug is reversible, i.e. you never know where the hot or neutral leg will be, and therefore all equipment is built such that it really doesn't matter.

The thing you have to watch out for is pumps and compressors. Power input increases by 3rd power of the frequency, and therefore a 50 Hz system might become overloaded if run at 60 Hz. I got a dual frequency compressor from Webasto, and fortunately Japan is half 50 and half 60 Hz, which is why you can buy Iwaki pumps which are suitable for both frequencies.

New style (electronically commutated) pumps don't care about frequency, so you can use them anywhere.

I have yet to figure out where potential problems could lurk. NOWHERE in the whole boat do I have a piece of equipment which has a neutral-earth connection - and if so, the GFCI would trip instantly. If it doesn't, you are good to go - assuming your marina has the ground conductor connected (they usually do).

Oliver

Correct, There is an obsession in the US about polarity, which never seems justified until you realise that negative , i.e. hot chassis was a common way to build early amplifiers etc. Reversing that results in a not nice result.

However today , and is common in Europe, almost every device has an isolated negative and a protective earth The protective earth may be locally established ( resulting in a floating neutral) or may be tied to the neutral resulting in a "agreed" neutral that in fact may not be at earth potential

IN fact with double isolating systems , its also irrelevant

Personally I treat the neutral as live and never assume that the polarity of the mains is as stated on the leads.


As to connecting EU 230 VAC to US split phase, once you understand the relationship with neutral then the voltages are the same ( even if the frequency isn't) .

So for a European, Hot2 is merely treated as neutral, as is regarded as "hot", a situation not uncommon in Europe anyway,

dave
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Old 04-03-2014, 08:43   #26
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Re: Understanding 220v

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
no such term " inverse phase". Phase is about timing. a 220 vac split phase system is a single phase system, the crossing point in time is the same for both Hot wires. The voltages are in inverse relationship when measured from the centre point.

dave
Inverse potential when measured from reference "0" potential
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Old 04-03-2014, 08:45   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
no such term " inverse phase". Phase is about timing. a 220 vac split phase system is a single phase system, the crossing point in time is the same for both Hot wires. The voltages are in inverse relationship when measured from the centre point. dave
Yes, I should have said out of phase, or the sine waves are opposite each other, etc.....

What I did not know is that 220 eu appliances would accept two hot leads to accomplish the same thing....
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Old 04-03-2014, 14:25   #28
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Re: Understanding 220v

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailmonkey View Post
Correct, US 220 is two hot legs of an inverse phase, EU 220 is one hot leg. Very different.


Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
not much different to the devices receiving it.

dave

Will European 220v appliances run on 110v? My earlier note was reaction to this (which seems to have disappeared...):

Originally Posted by svBeBe

We plug our boat into 220 US shore power. Our A/C and heat work, our battery chargers work, and, of course our inverter works. The things that will not work are: our dishwasher, clothes washer, microwave and 230 volt water maker. These will not work because of the 60htz frequency of US power.



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Old 04-03-2014, 16:58   #29
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Re: Understanding 220v

The OP has not chimed back in since the initial post so maybe he is gone. In any case, I have had to deal with Euro boats and their wiring systems as they relate to being able to pass a marine survey and get US boat insurance coverage. If you get a surveyor who pays attention he will not pass the Euro boat with Euro wiring because it does not meet the 3-wire U.S. 110/120VAC standard (unless the Euro manufacturer has installed the 3rd wire even though it is not used in Euro 220VAC).

Adding that 3rd wire can get expensive if it does not already exist as most wiring is buried behind the sidewalls and furniture. Additionally outlet box sizing may be different between Euro and US which is less of a problem but still a problem.

So if the OP was intending to get the boat insured in the USA then there could be some expenses involved.
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Old 04-03-2014, 17:28   #30
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Re: Understanding 220v

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Originally Posted by osirissail View Post
The OP has not chimed back in since the initial post so maybe he is gone. In any case, I have had to deal with Euro boats and their wiring systems as they relate to being able to pass a marine survey and get US boat insurance coverage. If you get a surveyor who pays attention he will not pass the Euro boat with Euro wiring because it does not meet the 3-wire U.S. 110/120VAC standard (unless the Euro manufacturer has installed the 3rd wire even though it is not used in Euro 220VAC).

Adding that 3rd wire can get expensive if it does not already exist as most wiring is buried behind the sidewalls and furniture. Additionally outlet box sizing may be different between Euro and US which is less of a problem but still a problem.

So if the OP was intending to get the boat insured in the USA then there could be some expenses involved.
I do not understand the insurance issue!! Our boat is 230/50hz and we have US underwritten insurance and there is no exclusion from operating the boat in NA. Can someone please enlighten me as to why everyone seems to be saying that you cannot get insurance in the US for a boat that is wired to work everywhere else in the world except NA. What do all the US boat owners do? Stay home?
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