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Old 24-06-2017, 18:46   #16
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Re: Trying to find connector

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Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
Solder can be counter-productive, especially in a use case with vibration.

A good crimp eliminates the need for anything else, and since the strands are all solid-fused with zero air gap, no water, much less solder could even get in there anyway.
Figured I'd get a bite on that, so here's some questions on these (as far as I'm experientially concerned) anti-soldering myths...

What is the effect of work hardening on both the sleeve of the terminal and the individual strands of wire when achieving this so-called solid-fusing? Or do you anneal the connection after you crimp it? I only ask because of the oft-repeated mantra that "a soldered connection fails at the 'hard spot' where the wire meets the solder"...because if this elusive 'vibration' causes hard-spot failure in the soldered connection, why doesn't it at the hard spot caused by the solid-fused crimp. Or does a solid-fused crimp somehow avoid this vibration?

What happens when the temperature changes and the crimped sleeve of the terminal expands at a different rate than the stranded wire?

Define 'zero air gap', especially in light of the expansion differential between stranded (or solid for that matter) wire and the copper cylinder (the crimped portion of the terminal) that surrounds it.

How well does that 'solid-fuse' crimp tool work with any but its proprietary terminals? Bet it's not quite so solid-fused any more, probably more like the crimp I get with my hardware store crimper...

Granted this is (mostly) rhetorical, just for grins. People are going to use what they like, or are comfortable with, are able to use, or can afford.

Crimp terminals have one uncontested advantage over soldering; they are faster. I think this is the main advantage for most individuals, and is almost certainly the one for manufacturers.

For versatility, longevity and conductivity, give me a pocket butane torch, some solid core solder, a tin of paste flux, some $20 crimpers, a couple rolls of heat shrink and some terminals, and I can make all the connections I want, and they'll last for decades (so far). But hey, I just like watching any kind of metal melt, even lowly solder and lead...
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Old 24-06-2017, 19:03   #17
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Re: Trying to find connector

If soldered connections were sound, aerospace & auto racing would allow them.

Main motivation for solder is cost, doing it right, to milspec pull test ratings, does require spending money on the tools.

But once you know what you're looking for and know how to work eBay, can build a good collection for a fraction of the new price.

And the terminations don't need to be brand-new, most categories there are several competing suppliers. But buying cheap generic stuff for anything important would be foolish.
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Old 24-06-2017, 19:36   #18
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Re: Trying to find connector

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Crimp terminals have one uncontested advantage over soldering; they are faster. I think this is the main advantage for most individuals, and is almost certainly the one for manufacturers.
You don't have to worry about differential rates of expansion. A properly made crimp using a quality terminal that the tool has been set up for will not fail between the temperatures of Antarctica and a fire.

Crimps have a few advantages:
  • faster, as you note. No hot tool, no time-consuming procedure, no cool-down
  • crimps won't typically fall apart if they heat up
  • an idiot with a decent crimp tool is much more likely to make a successful connection than an idiot with a soldering iron
Quote:
For versatility, longevity and conductivity, give me a pocket butane torch, some solid core solder, a tin of paste flux, some $20 crimpers, a couple rolls of heat shrink and some terminals, and I can make all the connections I want, and they'll last for decades (so far). But hey, I just like watching any kind of metal melt, even lowly solder and lead...
If you're using paste flux, you've just failed electric shop. Paste flux is acid, and a wire connection made with acid flux is likely to rot out after a few years.

I've been soldering, including professionally, for like 48 years. A good soldered connection (WITH ROSIN FLUX) is great... except for power connections, where bad joints can heat up appreciably, and fail, fall apart, and all sorts of mayhem can happen as the loose exposed ends touch things.

A crimped connection, even if it's not perfect, isn't likely to fall apart. That's why the ABYC only endorses crimped connections.
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Old 24-06-2017, 19:57   #19
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Re: Trying to find connector

Good grief. I successfully resisted responding until I read all the replies. I have done this many times, and have performed it on my on 3GM30G Yanmar. This is a basic that needs to be learned by newbies: KEEP IT SIMPLE, AND LABEL EVERYTHING. Use a simple terminal strip. Mount it somewhere easy to see and access. Take each wire, Label it with a Brother Label Maker "flag", or at least, a piece of masking tape with a label using an indelible ink marker. Match the wires to their mates on the terminal strip, best using a ring terminal, crimped. No questions in the future who is who, or connected to what. And cheap and cheerful.
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Old 25-06-2017, 06:24   #20
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Re: Trying to find connector

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If soldered connections were sound, aerospace & auto racing would allow them.

Straw man argument; we're not talking about comparatively short lived connections in aerospace technology or race cars, we're (or at least I'm) talking about long-lived (decades) connections in a highly temperature-cyclic, saline-humid environment. If you want to make an argument on the 'rockets and race cars' basis, vibration is your choice...

Main motivation for solder is cost, doing it right, to milspec pull test ratings, does require spending money on the tools.

But once you know what you're looking for and know how to work eBay, can build a good collection for a fraction of the new price.

Not sure on your point here. Are you saying that soldering is good but one has to have 'good' (does that mean expensive?) tools to do it right?

And the terminations don't need to be brand-new, most categories there are several competing suppliers. But buying cheap generic stuff for anything important would be foolish.

So you're saying that terminals from one crimper manufacturer work with crimpers from other manufacturers? And that the cost and origin of materials and supplies somehow reflect the quality of the work performed?

Well I resemble that statement, and invite you down to see some 15-20+ year old wiring, in cars, boats and buildings, all done with 'cheap generic stuff'. One has to be discerning when choosing between quality and price; really good tools and materials can often be had very reasonably, it's very easy to pay a lot of money for junk.

Interesting distinction between important and what--- not important? My take is that if I'm doing it, it's important enough to do right...
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You don't have to worry about differential rates of expansion. A properly made crimp using a quality terminal that the tool has been set up for will not fail between the temperatures of Antarctica and a fire.

I would say 'not fail initially' meaning the first few years, providing it was made correctly.

The failure mode I've seen for crimped connectors is the (microscopic) differential expansion brought about by unequal expansion rates for the pieces joined. While the spaces created are invisible to the naked eye, and have no initial effect on the mechanical or electrical strength of the connection, they are cavernous when compared to the size of a water molecule (about 3 10 billionths of an meter). Over time this allows corrosion to start, and with repeated temperature driven expansion/contraction cycling, the corrosion grows (not linearly) until resistance (Joule's) heating takes over and real problems begin (if the corrosion induced voltage fluctuation in todays sensitive circuitry wasn't problem enough).

This is my hypothesis, so caveat emptor. But I know for sure that something is causing all the problems I see with these crimped connectors, and I kinda think the manufacturers have the money and incentive to use the appropriate tooling...alternative reasoning welcome here...



Crimps have a few advantages:


  • faster, as you note. No hot tool, no time-consuming procedure, no cool-down
  • crimps won't typically fall apart if they heat up
I assume you mean that uncrimped soldered terminations can fall apart if they undergo resistance heating. Well I suppose they can, but I've never seen it, because I always crimp my terminals before I solder them...

  • an idiot with a decent crimp tool is much more likely to make a successful connection than an idiot with a soldering iron
Agree 100%, so please, anyone who's in a hurry or unwilling to learn should not go the soldering route...

If you're using paste flux, you've just failed electric shop. Paste flux is acid, and a wire connection made with acid flux is likely to rot out after a few years.

Well..... there's acid based paste flux and rosin based paste flux


I usually use this (or its equivalent), but have used regular plumbing flux in a pinch, wiping the connection clean afterword, heat shrinking and oxguarding as usual and have noticed no difference. Certainly no 'rotting out after a few years'.
But I have seen some green discoloration and corrosion around sweated copper tubing, and so would agree that it's best to go with the recommendation of rosin base for electrics and acid base for plumbing...


I've been soldering, including professionally, for like 48 years. A good soldered connection (WITH ROSIN FLUX) is great... except for power connections, where bad joints can heat up appreciably, and fail, fall apart, and all sorts of mayhem can happen as the loose exposed ends touch things.

Well you've got about 10 years on me, so maybe I'm ready for my comeuppance...

A crimped connection, even if it's not perfect, isn't likely to fall apart. That's why the ABYC only endorses crimped connections.

But, of course, I'm not looking for ABYC's endorsement.
To the OP, sorry for the hijack...to everyone else, do what you're comfortable with, but my experience chasing electrical faults induced by multi-pin crimped connectors has certainly illuminated their advantages and shortcomings for me. They have improved quite a bit over the last 15-20 years, so if you're looking for the "professional" appearance, they might be perfect for you...
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Old 25-06-2017, 06:32   #21
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Re: Trying to find connector

Space and airplanes, and racing cars are a lot more critical than, and often designed for much LONGER lifecycles than consumer autos.

>> Main motivation for solder is cost, doing it right, to milspec pull test ratings, does require spending money on the tools.

> Not sure on your point here. Are you saying that soldering is good but one has to have 'good' (does that mean expensive?) tools to do it right?

No "doing it right" = not using solder

If someone isn't willing to get the right crimp tools, I agree solder may make his connection a little more secure, but really then IMO ordering from genuinedealz.com is the better way to go.
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Old 25-06-2017, 07:41   #22
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Re: Trying to find connector

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But, of course, I'm not looking for ABYC's endorsement.

...to everyone else, do what you're comfortable with, but my experience chasing electrical faults induced by multi-pin crimped connectors has certainly illuminated their advantages and shortcomings for me. They have improved quite a bit over the last 15-20 years, so if you're looking for the "professional" appearance, they might be perfect for you...
Thanks for the correction re your paste flux.

Your above comments re multi-pin connectors - I assume you're referring to the whole spectrum of multi-pin crimped connectors (molex, etc). There certainly is a wide variance in the manner of crimp, crimped area, materials and plating, etc... and intended uses and lifespan.

Regarding the crimped splices and lugs we use in boats - I feel pretty confident that those have sufficient metal and contact area to be reliable and to have a long life. Soldering after crimping... can make a 99% connection into a 100% connection... but not everyone is going to be able to do that well.

If everyone soldered as well as jimbunyard, the ABYC would probably view it more favourably . But as a standards body - they have to endorse the practice that results in the highest success rate and maximum safety, and acheivable by the most amateurs and semiskilled labour. As guidelines go, they're pretty sensible.
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Old 25-06-2017, 17:11   #23
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Re: Trying to find connector

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If soldered connections were sound, aerospace & auto racing would allow them.

.......
I see this claim made over and over again, leaving aside the space and auto racing industries (because I'm unfamiliar with them), can anyone cite where soldering is banned in the aeronautical industry. Any FAA regs or otherwise that states solder connections cannot be used.

I understand that crimp connections are common place but have yet to find any references that prevent the use of solder.
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Old 25-06-2017, 19:10   #24
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Re: Trying to find connector

Each airframe mfg writes their own rules, much more consistent and respected than the FAA **guidelines**.

In practice, pre-insulated crimped gas-tight connections are the norm on aircraft, qualified by mil-spec tensile strength pull-tests.

There is no solder-joint to be found in any terminal connection in any Boeing jet.

I will concede it is possible for reliable connections to be soldered by an experienced expert.

Calibrated tool-terminator pairs take the skill variable out of the equation.

You do see some solder, at the device end of avionics and controls, after the wire endpoints have been secured against any vibration.

Including multi-pin connectors, where IMO amp-deutsch are far superior to weatherpack, molex or stock trailer plugs.
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Old 26-06-2017, 11:04   #25
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Re: Trying to find connector

Try Waytek wire or Delcity. they both sell reasonable quantities of sealed connectors. The Delphi ones work well in my experience.
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Old 20-12-2019, 07:57   #26
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Re: Trying to find connector

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Amphenol-Deutsch better than weatherpack. Check out the LADD website for info https://laddinc.com/products/connector-selector/
Hey John61ct - I'm trying to follow your advice, but this link takes me to a 164 page catalog or a mind-numbing product selector page that seems to have a lot of overlapping products that do exactly the same thing.

Can you point me to a specific product you'd recommend? I also tried googling "Amphenol-Deutsch connectors" and I get the same long list of multiple, seemingly-conflicting product lines (i.e. they are different shapes that do the same thing). Thanks!
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Old 20-12-2019, 08:00   #27
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Re: Trying to find connector

TE Connectivity / also AMP now

once you decide which line you want delete the other two

https://www.google.com/search?q=Deutsch+dt+dtp+dtm
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Old 20-12-2019, 08:16   #28
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Re: Trying to find connector

Wow quick response; thanks! So you wouldn't recommend the AMP Superseal connectors? You sound like you're pretty knowledgeable on the subject... mind if I ask why the other connectors over Superseal?
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Old 20-12-2019, 09:26   #29
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Re: Trying to find connector

They look like for a different use case building PCBs, and a huge pin count?

But can't fault the maker, super reputable, OTS versions of military grade stuff, so basically read the datasheets and choose what fits the needs of your application.
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