Trojan lithium drop in replacement

[KTP]

Originally Posted by rgleason

But wouldn't it be easier and much less expensive to use Winston LiFePo with a BMS?

Sure. What is the warranty and background of the company selling the Winston LiFePo4 and BMS through a USA distributor with the ability to return items malfunctioning to the same USA distributor?

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by KTP

Sure. What is the warranty and background of the company selling the Winston LiFePo4 and BMS through a USA distributor with the ability to return items malfunctioning to the same USA distributor?

if you have half the cost per Ah, no warranty needed. You can replace all four cells and break even. It is very unlikely that all 4 cells fail anyway.

I have paid around 5000€ for four 1000Ah Winston cells to have 12V 1000Ah usable capacity plus 1000€ for the BMS, wiring and the solenoids on a completely user-configurable sytem. How much would it cost to compose a system with Trojans and can you tweak the system to your preferences?

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by rgleason

I think I would rather charge it up to 30% SOC several times during the winter, maybe late fall and early spring.

These are a pretty nice package, but you will still need:
1.Charging Bus with disconnect relay and Volt sensor for alternator, solarPV and shore charger.
2.Discharge Bus with disconnect relay and Volt sensor for House panel and other loads.
I think a Victron BM-712 would do this and allow you to set your own limits within Trojan's BMS.

But wouldn't it be easier and much less expensive to use Winston LiFePo with a BMS?

I've been seeing more people just forego alternator charging of LiFePO altogether, especially those running outboards which would only supply small amounts of current anyhow.

[KTP]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

if you have half the cost per Ah, no warranty needed. You can replace all four cells and break even. It is very unlikely that all 4 cells fail anyway.

I have paid around 5000€ for four 1000Ah Winston cells to have 12V 1000Ah usable capacity plus 1000€ for the BMS, wiring and the solenoids on a completely user-configurable sytem. How much would it cost to compose a system with Trojans and can you tweak the system to your preferences?

It looks like an equivalent system would use 12 of the Trojan 92AH batteries (you can parallel them up to 20). They are going to be about $750US each from what I hear, so that would be $9000 US, which is 8000 euro.

So about 2000 euro more than your homebrew solution but they come with a warranty and are IP67 rated with canbus communication to each battery and they have a huge amount of internal monitoring and safety items, including a hard shutoff.

It is the first time that lithium has actually caught my eye in a way that I am strongly considering it. I was waiting for a big boy to jump in the water (I do realize Victron was available).

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by KTP

It looks like an equivalent system would use 12 of the Trojan 92AH batteries (you can parallel them up to 20).

Just because you can, does not mean you should. Perhaps a "meta BMS" can overcome balancing issues, meantime I'll stick to 3 strings paralleled, maybe 4.

> They are going to be about $750US each from what I hear

That would indeed be an attractive price point for a superior product, If. . .

> It is the first time that lithium has actually caught my eye in a way that I am strongly considering it. I was waiting for a big boy to jump in the water (I do realize Victron was available).

I very much agree if they can pull it off, will help build acceptance of LFP in the US market, hopefully help stimulate the badly-needed development of large prismatic distribution networks.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by KTP

It looks like an equivalent system would use 12 of the Trojan 92AH batteries (you can parallel them up to 20). They are going to be about $750US each from what I hear, so that would be $9000 US, which is 8000 euro.
........

That is a pretty attractive price, not the buy 12, but get say 3 or 4 for a cruising boat. Where'd you get the quote/estimate? Do you think its real?
At this price they would probably shine over the current price of Firefly batts.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by ontherocks83

I don't know if this is accurate but here's one price.

Trillium Battery - Trojan Intelligent Lithium 12.8V 110Ah - We Go Solar Canada

I followed this link and searched the web site, they are talking about 1589$, probably CAN$?

http://www.wegosolar.com/products.ph...um-12.8V-110Ah

Iff CDN, than at current excange rate this would be 1056€ per 110Ah or around 10000 for the 10000Ah, so almost double price.

[KTP]

Another forum a dealer had supposedly leaked some early pricing as follows:

BCI 5HR 10HR 20HR
GRP PART # Voltage (18A) (9A) (5A) LENGTH WIDTH HEIGHT WT LIST $ L CORE NET LIST
NEW TRILLIUMTM INTELLIGENT LITHIUM BATTERIES
24 TR12.8-92 LI-ION 12.8 92 92 92.5 10.20 (258 ) 6.60 (167.7) 8.50 (216) 22 (10) $1,510.00 $755.00 $15.00 $770.00
27 TR12.8-110 LI-ION 12.8 110 110 111 12.10 (307.4) 6.60 (167.7) 8.70 (221) 30 (13.6) $1,817.50 $908.75 $15.00 $923.75
U1 TR25.6-25 LI-ION 25.5 25 25 25.5 7.80 (197) 5.20 (132) 6.80 (173) 11.7 (5.3) $815.00 $407.50 $5.00 $412.50

Yeah the format he used sucks but it looks like the group 24 92AH version is going to list for $1510, retail for $755 with a $15 core charge for a total of $770. Might not have to pay the core charge everywhere though.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by KTP

going to list for $1510, retail for $755

I'd bet the $1510 is the list retail, $755 the wholesale price to the dealer / retailer, and that likely before shipping.

They are unlikely to get discounted much, especially in early months, unless Trojan runs special promotions across the board.

[KTP]

$750 and they sell like hotcakes, $1500 and they sit on a shelf in the warehouse.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by KTP

$750 and they sell like hotcakes, $1500 and they sit on a shelf in the warehouse.

True, but you have to be able to manufacture them in hotcakes volumes.

[KTP]

Originally Posted by Paul L

True, but you have to be able to manufacture them in hotcakes volumes.

That is the one thing you can trust the Chinese to do.

[john61ct]

You can bet Trojan will order them in large batches.

As long as conditions are cool they can sit for many years without deteriorating much, and unlike lead they won't need topping up.

Pricing is a marketing game. If the product is truly superior, with their brand recognition, they'd be stupid to compete with BB on price.

Other than perhaps a well-advertised promotion for a market-entry splash, maybe up to a month or two.

[hellosailor]

20-30 year ago there was an interesting article about price points and profits in IIRC the Harvard Business School's magazine. Bottom line, assuming typical net versus gross price structures, retail if you cut the price by 10% you may have to sell 100bx more product to make the same net profits. I'm sure I have the numbers wrong but the point is, you've got to sell an AWFUL LOT MORE to compensate for any price reduction.

I suspect Trojan has chosen their price point very carefully, and at this point, introducing and debugging a new product, they're happier to sell very few of the new systems, until they've gotten a year or two of feedback on how well it is working out.

Marketing is only slightly simpler than alchemy.

[KTP]

The problem is, $1500 for 1100 watt hours is not competitive.

Torqeedo has their batteries priced at better than $1 per watt hour, same waterproof rating. They are not quite as drop in ready as these though.

$750 seems pretty cheap I agree (with Lifeline being $400 for far fewer cycle life).

I was thinking they would be around $1000 each.