Triskel power generation system on Distant Shores III

[tanglewood]

Originally Posted by john61ct

You misunderstand.

I meant, for those of us that want to gain some of these capabilities, but would never buy the actual product.

Got it, thanks.

[OceanPlanet]

Originally Posted by john61ct

You misunderstand.

I meant, for those of us that want to gain some of these capabilities, but would never buy the actual product.

Note that at some point that the Triskel controller could be used with other, smaller alts. For instance certainly with American Power 48V x 150A HPI's (up to 5kW). At some point we'll be looking into adapting it to 24V alts (up to around 4.2kW) as well.

[boom23]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Would be great to nail down "larger", define the top and bottom of the "suitable" HP range, compared to being able to use an old-school firetruck alt + external VR.

[emoji121] What John61ct said...

I would think that Distant Shores III got their system for very little money, if anything. I am not about to spend serious money for a losely defined and unproven product. I'm sticking to the proven generator. I will reconsider when the company irons out all the details.

[OceanPlanet]

That's good, because the waiting list is over a year already, before we've even started marketing. For North America we're only doing a few of these on chosen projects for 2019.

[KeelMe]

Originally Posted by stormalong

It's a sailboat! He ignores using other alternative power sources such as wind, drag prop and solar. He does mention how impractical solar is for him because he does not have the real estate. IMO He is not trying hard enough with alt energy methods - he wants to hype his big alternator solution.

The only alternative energy source I am interested it is solar. I however refuse to put a large arch on my boat to install a large solar bank. I have one small solar panel that produces enough energy to run our lights and fans. More importantly the one solar panel is hardly visible.

I have no interest in towing a generator and there is no way I would ever install an ugly wind generator.

To each their own but I plan to keep my boat looking just the way Olle Enderlein designed her, graceful.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by OceanPlanet

Note that at some point that the Triskel controller could be used with other, smaller alts. For instance certainly with American Power 48V x 150A HPI's (up to 5kW). At some point we'll be looking into adapting it to 24V alts (up to around 4.2kW) as well.

Great to know Bruce!

[rgleason]

I think one of the things that is being done with Triskel Power unit, is simply the next logical thing to do, smarter controls (using engine condition etc.) of the Sterling A2B Advanced charging process to be responsive to engine loads.

https://sterling-power.com/products/...ers-up-to-130a

Sterling A2B charger versus Pro Digital - Page 2
See page 9 of the Instruction pdf for the Charging Graph to see what I mean.

so that alternator output can be separated from engine speed. Of course a dozen other things are going on as well, but in my opinion that is what is new.

[tanglewood]

Originally Posted by rgleason

I think one of the things that is being done with Triskel Power unit, is simply the next logical thing to do, smarter controls (using engine condition etc.) of the Sterling A2B Advanced charging process to be responsive to engine loads.

https://sterling-power.com/products/...ers-up-to-130a

Sterling A2B charger versus Pro Digital - Page 2
See page 9 of the Instruction pdf for the Charging Graph to see what I mean.

so that alternator output can be separated from engine speed. Of course a dozen other things are going on as well, but in my opinion that is what is new.

I have to say, these A2B chargers strike me as an incredibly complicated and inefficient alternative to a good voltage regulator. But if you don't want to crack open the alternator, or replace it with an externally regulated alternator, I suppose it's your only choice.


I also learned something interesting from Sterling at METS. Their alternator regulators only support a max of about 5A field current. That's pretty limiting, and for larger alternators they pointed me to the A2B.

[rgleason]

Originally Posted by tanglewood

I have to say, these A2B chargers strike me as an incredibly complicated and inefficient alternative to a good voltage regulator. But if you don't want to crack open the alternator, or replace it with an externally regulated alternator, I suppose it's your only choice.

I also learned something interesting from Sterling at METS. Their alternator regulators only support a max of about 5A field current. That's pretty limiting, and for larger alternators they pointed me to the A2B.

Its not the simplicity for newbee users that is the point here. Yes they are complicated, so is Triskel Power.

I believe the A2B basically has smart programmed adjustable DC to DC converter which is used to adjust the power output. It also shows a false voltage to the alternator, to control the alternator output. This is particularly important at low rpms. Why? because high amp alternators don't tend to have good low amp production.

What this does is separate alternator output (watts) from motor rpms so that the alternator - A2B combination can charge batteries "5x faster" according to Sterling. It is like having a mechanical step pulley on the alternator and adjusting the alternator speed according to needs.

What I believe the Triskel Power does is something similar with a DC to DC converter, except it also includes the diodes/rectifier and probably the regulator, along with even more smarts to react to engine loads and adjust. It is probably using a regulator for most situations and the DC-DC Converter for particular conditions.

My observation had nothing to do with the merits of the A2B with respect to an external regulator. I believe the Trindle has in it elements of the Sterling A2B which are used in conjunction with engine information and other reasonable features to get the charging capacity that Trindle Power claims.

[john61ct]

The much greater flexibility of the Sterling B2B approach for me wins over A2B.

At least for optimizing charging of an LFP bank.

Managing the alternator specifically is not IMO that big a payoff, unless it was a very important energy source while living on the hook, running the propulsion engine specifically for the electricity, minimizing that runtime would be a strong incentive.

But it's hard for me to imagine a scenario where gaining some additional power per hour, while actually motoring would be worth a large investment, usually going to be doing that long enough to get the LFP full anyway?

[rgleason]

Well there are those situations, John..... :-) Hook or Mooring what is the primary source?
" unless it was a very important energy source while living on the hook, running the propulsion engine specifically for the electricity, minimizing that runtime would be a strong incentive."

Also its basically the same price as an MC 614

But this thread is about Triskle power and its technology centered aroumd a very effective alternator + device, isnt it?

[tanglewood]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Its not the simplicity for newbee users that is the point here. Yes they are complicated, so is Triskel Power.

I believe the A2B basically has smart programmed adjustable DC to DC converter which is used to adjust the power output. It also shows a false voltage to the alternator, to control the alternator output. This is particularly important at low rpms. Why? because high amp alternators don't tend to have good low amp production.

But a Balmar regulator (I name them just as an example) accomplishes the exact same thing. It adjusted the power output to match the acceptance of the batteries/DC load, and is capable of driving the alternator to max possible output at any rpm.

Originally Posted by rgleason

What this does is separate alternator output (watts) from motor rpms so that the alternator - A2B combination can charge batteries "5x faster" according to Sterling. It is like having a mechanical step pulley on the alternator and adjusting the alternator speed according to needs.

There will always be some relationship between rpm and max possible alternator output - that's a characteristic of the alternator. What I think you are referring to is the output curve of an internally regulated alternator, and the desire to overcome that and gain greater output at lower rpms. That is indeed a useful goal, and is also precisely what an external regulator does. But the output is still limited by generated heat and cooling capacity, and by the alternator itself. Any regulator needs to back off when the alternator gets too hot (Balmar or Sterling), or never drive it there is the first place (internal regulator)

Originally Posted by rgleason

What I believe the Triskel Power does is something similar with a DC to DC converter, except it also includes the diodes/rectifier and probably the regulator, along with even more smarts to react to engine loads and adjust. It is probably using a regulator for most situations and the DC-DC Converter for particular conditions.

They do


1) External regulation a-la Balmar


2) Run the alternator, regulator, and their battery system at 48V. This is uncommon, but could be done with off the shelf gear.


3) DC/DC conversion to get from 48V to a more usable 12V or 24V


4) Enhanced alternator control, but only slightly so compared to a Balmar. When the battery/loads can accept it, and the alternator isn't overheated, the differences are:


4a) The Balmar algorithm is "full alternator output".


4b) The Triskle algorithm is "full alternator output, but don't drive the engine into overload".



The only difference between the two is when prop load + alternator load is greater that max engine output capacity. That's only at the top end of the propulsion load range, since at all other loads there is plenty of headroom for the alternator load. You guys should tell me, but do you really run your engines at 80-100% throttle? If so, the back-off algorithm will be beneficial. On trawlers people pretty much never run at those load levels, so there is always plenty of headroom for alternator load with no need to ever back off. The smaller the engine, the larger the top-end operating range will be where back-off can help. The larger the engine, the smaller the range, up to a point where it simple doesn't matter.

Originally Posted by rgleason

My observation had nothing to do with the merits of the A2B with respect to an external regulator. I believe the Triskle has in it elements of the Sterling A2B which are used in conjunction with engine information and other reasonable features to get the charging capacity that Trindle Power claims.

[rgleason]

Thanks Tanglewood.
I think you are right about Balmar vs A2B. I stand corrected.


Good explanation.
Any idea how they get the high output and efficiency claimed?
- 48 vdc and converter?
- Remote rectifier and regulator?
- Intelligent use?
Is that it?

[tanglewood]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Thanks Tanglewood.
I think you are right about Balmar vs A2B. I stand corrected.


Good explanation.
Any idea how they get the high output and efficiency claimed?
- 48 vdc and converter?
- Remote rectifier and regulator?
- Intelligent use?
Is that it?

The higher efficiency and higher output from a small alternator is all because of the higher operating voltage.


I hadn't appreciated how difficult it is - as in nearly impossible - to fit a large frame alternator to a typical Sailboat engine. It's probably well know to all of you, but I just have no experience with them.


High output with continuous duty is no big deal with a larger alternator, but as we all know, highly problematic with a small alternator. Running at higher voltage is a great way to get more out of a smaller alternator package.

[john61ct]

Crosslink http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/....php?p=2765613