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Old 13-08-2014, 17:13   #61
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Re: To Solder or Not.. That is the Question

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Originally Posted by wingless View Post
Sorry there is confusion.

Perhaps the linked reply is not clear.

There is no contention by me that the mechanical connection is being created by the soldered splice.

Instead the mechanical connection is being made by folding the wire over onto itself, then securing the folded wire using wire ties, as shown in the link and as shown below.

This configuration has no mechanical stress possible on the solder joint, w/ all the mechanical stress being sustained by the wire, due to the configuration.


Splice Folded Onto Itself - Strain Relief Using Nylon Wire Ties
First off I doubt this joint will fail. However we are talking about standards and while every variation cannot be included in the standard, trained and certified technicians and engineers have to interpret the standard based on best practices, experience and inference of what the standard is trying to achieve.

Mainsail has been tireless in explaining the standard and the difference between mechanical connection and strain relief.

If the standard is stating that solder is not a mechanical connection nor is twisting the wires then a suitable strain relief must be provided. To me this strain relief should be as adequate as the replacement standard.

While you have doubled the wire back on itself and secured it with zip ties I would submit you have not provided adequate strain relief.

I don't know where the wires go from the joint but the strain relief in my mind would be an adel clamp secured to a bulkhead so if the joint we subject to load the load would transfer through the wire to the structure.

I would submit that if subjected to loads at the crimp joint test level the zip tie strain relief would come apart or at least not perform its function adequately.

Like I said I don't think your joint is bad but I don't think it is a true replacement of the standard.

We are talking about angels that dance on pinheads here. And going back to the ABYC, FAA and NASA specs - when you substitute a spec you aren't just allowed to say, "That looks about right." - In a certified environment you are supposed to have an engineering group and quality group that authorizes the replacement as a company standard and ensure the replacement meets the certified requirements for the specification.

That's why airplane stuff costs so much...

In regards to helicopters - 10,000 aircraft parts reluctantly flying in formation.
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Old 13-08-2014, 18:13   #62
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Re: To Solder or Not.. That is the Question

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Vibration or even just a little flex on the joint -- stranded wire which has been soldered becomes extremely brittle where the solder goes up the strands. Which is just where the joint needs to flex in case of vibration or simple deflection of the wire.

I'll bet there's no solder in helicopter wiring?
My question was more intended to ask what do you think caused every PO joint to fail on your vessel. Was every joint subject to vibration? I'm thinking this would be unusual (but possible). I'm also thinking the PO may have used poor soldering practice and left flux behind thus causing accelerated corrosion which would also then lead to broken wires. Your first hand experience would be helpful to others to see exactly why the PO joints failed.


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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
..............
That's why airplane stuff costs so much...

In regards to helicopters - 10,000 aircraft parts reluctantly flying in formation.
And the helicopter stuff is even more expensive than fixed wing .

You say flying in formation; I suggest vibrating in formation and thus beating the air into submission

More seriously, some of you may be quite surprised at the amount of soldering carried out in a helicopter. Not much in the way of percentage of solder vs crimp but given the thousands of connections, still a sizeable number. I don't have any hard data but in the last few weeks I would have crimped maybe 300 or 400 wires and soldered maybe 10 or 15.

Don't fret, after soldering in an approved (FAA / NASA / CASA) fashion, they are fully supported and strain relief applied also in accordance with the relevant standards. I know these soldered connections will remain serviceable until the next rebuild is carried out in a decade or so. I have to place my credentials in writing for all of them - if any one of them failed, I have a lot to loose - far more than an electrical fault while cruising
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Old 13-08-2014, 19:11   #63
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Re: To Solder or Not.. That is the Question

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I have to place my credentials in writing for all of them - if any one of them failed, I have a lot to loose - far more than an electrical fault while cruising
Really? Where do you work, North Korea? Not much seems to happen to any tech in the free world for 1 mistake. However if I botch a connection to my windlass or starter and I wash up on a reef in Belize, I am really screwed.
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Old 13-08-2014, 19:18   #64
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Re: To Solder or Not.. That is the Question

I believe Wotname is/was an aviation professional (sounds like avionics with a helicopter focus) and, yes, people die when mistakes are made in aviation and technicians/mechanics can lose their licenses.
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Old 13-08-2014, 19:53   #65
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Re: To Solder or Not.. That is the Question

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Really? Where do you work, North Korea? Not much seems to happen to any tech in the free world for 1 mistake. However if I botch a connection to my windlass or starter and I wash up on a reef in Belize, I am really screwed.
Perhaps a little poetic licence was taken but Ex-Calif is correct, the real license can be removed should circumstances warrant (and jail time can occur).

Regardless of that, when one's acquaintances die in an accident on an aircraft that you have been even remotely associated with, it leaves a terrible feeling.

Most (but not all), aviation engineers (mechanics) understand this is part of the culture of the industry and they tend to hold themselves to a greater standard than the regulations require.

But this is thread drift, it is suffice to say, the crimp / solder debate will go on in the virtual world while in the real world, work will continue with people doing whatever they feel best.

Perhaps my view is best summed up as - crimp unless you know better and know why it is better. Repeat "know" not "think you know".

As many other have said, both can be fooked up but you have to try harder to mess up a crimp, if you have taken the time and effort to find and use quality crimps and tooling.
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Old 13-08-2014, 19:57   #66
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Re: To Solder or Not.. That is the Question

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Really? Where do you work, North Korea? Not much seems to happen to any tech in the free world for 1 mistake. However if I botch a connection to my windlass or starter and I wash up on a reef in Belize, I am really screwed.
Yes, this is true so perhaps we both have significant stuff to loose.
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Old 13-08-2014, 20:01   #67
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Re: To Solder or Not.. That is the Question

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
I believe Wotname is/was an aviation professional (sounds like avionics with a helicopter focus) and, yes, people die when mistakes are made in aviation and technicians/mechanics can lose their licenses.
Oh BS! Sure you can loose your license but not for a bad solder joint. In 35+ years, I've done **** way worse than that. What bunch of hyperbole.
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Old 13-08-2014, 20:12   #68
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Re: To Solder or Not.. That is the Question

For standards to have usefulness they should allow easy verification that the job has in fact been done per the standard. Wingless' connection looks very good as seen in the step by step photos and will last a long time. But there is no way for a surveyor to ascertain it was done properly without disassembling the whole thing.

One pet peeve I have is opaque heat shrink. If you are going to use heat shrink over a connection consider using clear. It makes it much easier to inspect for corrosion. 3M makes a good clear heat shrink (MFP) that complies with numerous standards.
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Old 13-08-2014, 20:57   #69
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Re: To Solder or Not.. That is the Question

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Oh BS! Sure you can loose your license but not for a bad solder joint. In 35+ years, I've done **** way worse than that. What bunch of hyperbole.
Also a 35 year aviation professional - I have seen people lose licenses and I have read reports of aircraft lost because of mishandled maintenance.

No one said you lose your license for a bad solder joint. But putting a solder joint on a registered aircraft where one is not supposed to be without documentation is illegal - that's a fact you can take to the bank.

Such a modification is considered a "minor repair or alteration" under the regs and these can be performed by licensed mechanics when signed off by a mechanic with an inspection authorization rating.

Call it hyperbole if you want to narrowly interpret the conversation but I would suspect you aren't an aviation professional, an aviation professional who scoffs at the rules or an aviation professional who is ignorant of the rules.

But again... We aren't necessarily talking aviation... Most of us putting boating in a professional context are very familiar and comfortable with the standards that keep aviation safe.

There are many, many brilliant shade tree mechanics who do outstanding work. However the "norm" in boating is completely shitty work done by people with little knowledge and fewer skills who underestimate the task and overestimate their abilities. They often ignore standards and apply the "That looks about right" theory of systems installation.
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Old 14-08-2014, 05:05   #70
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Re: To Solder or Not.. That is the Question

Such a long thread with discussion of planes etc. on a boat forum.
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Old 14-08-2014, 05:17   #71
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Re: To Solder or Not.. That is the Question

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Such a long thread with discussion of planes etc. on a boat forum.
I agree with you Sailorboy - My apologies to the thread.

First rule of internet arguments is that the first person to call the other person a name is the loser...
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Old 14-08-2014, 05:24   #72
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Re: To Solder or Not.. That is the Question

Whats all this interstellar space travel nasa bs and aviation bs. The marine environment is completely and utterly different! Back on topic please...my god

We ALL need to show more respect to peoples informed opinions.
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Old 14-08-2014, 05:27   #73
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Re: To Solder or Not.. That is the Question

“If someone isn't what others want them to be, the others become angry. Everyone seems to have a clear idea of how other people should lead their lives, but none about his or her own.”
― Paulo Coelho

how sad...
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Old 14-08-2014, 06:02   #74
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Re: To Solder or Not.. That is the Question

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marine environment is completely and utterly different! Back on topic please...my god
I am afraid you don't seem to get how this works.

Every technical question on CF is answered in the first 5 posts.

After that it's all entertainment, bickering and thread drift. There is no topic to get back to.

Solder or don't solder - Up to you, and the OP, and anyone else still tuned in...
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Old 14-08-2014, 06:11   #75
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Re: To Solder or Not.. That is the Question

The simple fact is that the process of soldering crimps originated primarily amongst amateurs, who finding that certain crimps failed, then believed soldering improved the situation

In practice, soldering a bad crimp, at least makes it "generally" into a less bad crimp. However many times the solder often exacerbates the problem.

If we invested in decent crimps and tooling, it would be immediately obvious that these method is generally superior in handling flexible stranded cable connections. But in practice the average boater simple;y cannot bring himself to splurge on tooling, often to perform only a few connections. Hence the belief in solder, heat shrink etc.

Bad practice is bad practice, but often its the only means at someones disposal.

dave
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