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Old 06-06-2008, 20:33   #46
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I told ya didn't I Charlie?
Yes you did. I shuld have clearedit with you prior to posting it LOL
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Old 06-06-2008, 21:44   #47
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Some of the comments about using "the absolutely best materials on the face of the planet" are a bit over the top - IMHO.

We are working on boats not space vehicles. There should be a standard of quality and the ABYC standards advise what those standards are. Sometimes more expensive is not safer or higher performance.

If I were wiring a boat to last my grandchildren's lifetime, OK maybe the extra cost is worth it.

The idea that I can put top of the line everything in a boat and that I will get that money back on the eventual sale of the boat is crazy. No one will pay top dollar for different wire, unless they are an electrotechie.

If you put platinum cost electric systems in a boat - you do it for yourself. My boat is 21 years old. "almost" all the wire runs are still fine. The appliances at the end of the wire runs are what gives out...
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Old 07-06-2008, 08:24   #48
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I simply would not buy a used boat where the previous owner did not use marine grade wire and did not wire it to ABYC standards. Go ahead and cut costs all you want but I don't think most people who know anything about boats would buy it either. Why take the chance on something that was done "outside the box" of what is standard and is known to work? ...even if it is an $80 platinum connector ...or gawd forbid, Romex wire.

Also, aircraft are not boats and boats are not aircraft, therefore one standard is not necessarily better than the other standard. The environment an aircraft has to work in is far different than the environment a boat works in. The standards for reliability need to match the operating environment. I am certain there are some things that work for aircraft that would never work for a boat.

Also, there is good reason the CFR's do not allow soldered only wire terminations on subchapter-T and up inspected passenger vessels. Any soldered wired connections must be held together mechanically as well.

1910.303(c)(3)(i)
Conductors shall be spliced or joined with splicing devices identified for the use or by brazing, welding, or soldering with a fusible metal or alloy. Soldered splices shall first be spliced or joined to be mechanically and electrically secure without solder and then soldered. All splices and joints and the free ends of conductors shall be covered with an insulation equivalent to that of the conductors or with an insulating device identified for the purpose.

Why does it matter? Solder typically melts around 360F which is a lot lower than wire could get if short circuited.
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Old 07-06-2008, 08:41   #49
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Some of the comments about using "the absolutely best materials on the face of the planet" are a bit over the top - IMHO.
OK, who exactly are you quoting there? I didn't see anybody in this thread say such a thing.

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
We are working on boats not space vehicles. There should be a standard of quality and the ABYC standards advise what those standards are. Sometimes more expensive is not safer or higher performance.
No body has suggested that anything better than ABYC recommendations is needed. Some people feel that tinned wire adds an extra measure of corrosion resistance. The primary argument on this thread is between people who THINK they are using good quality wire, but do not really understand the wire specifications.

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
The idea that I can put top of the line everything in a boat and that I will get that money back on the eventual sale of the boat is crazy. No one will pay top dollar for different wire, unless they are an electrotechie.
Where in this thread did you read somebody saying such a thing?

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
If you put platinum cost electric systems in a boat - you do it for yourself. My boat is 21 years old. "almost" all the wire runs are still fine. The appliances at the end of the wire runs are what gives out...
People get excited about wire because it is a safety issue. Those wire runs that are "almost" fine are the ones that just might start a fire.
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Old 07-06-2008, 09:18   #50
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"almost" all the wire runs are still fine
Kind of speaks for itself doesn't it...
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Old 07-06-2008, 14:07   #51
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Pilot complaint: "Tire almost worn out."
Mechanic Reply: "Almost changed tire."

Let me reiterate my advice, hard won by training, experience, and study:

Unless you have more knowledg
e & expertise than anyone posting here has demonstrated (including me); the various marine standards* offer the best guidance available to boat owners. Use them!

*CFRs, ABYC Standards, Canadian TP1332E - "Construction Standards for Small Vessels" & TP127 - "Ships electrical Standards", and others ...

Construction: http://www.tc.gc.ca/publications/EN/...HR/TP1332E.pdf
Electrical: Ships Electrical Standards (2008) | TP 127 | Marine Safety
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Old 07-06-2008, 19:07   #52
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...
Unless you have more knowledg
e & expertise than anyone posting here has demonstrated (including me); the various marine standards* offer the best guidance available to boat owners. Use them!

May I add - and only deviate from them at your own risk

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Originally Posted by David M View Post
.....
Also, aircraft are not boats and boats are not aircraft, therefore one standard is not necessarily better than the other standard. The environment an aircraft has to work in is far different than the environment a boat works in. The standards for reliability need to match the operating environment. I am certain there are some things that work for aircraft that would never work for a boat.

Also, there is good reason the CFR's do not allow soldered only wire terminations on subchapter-T and up inspected passenger vessels. Any soldered wired connections must be held together mechanically as well.

1910.303(c)(3)(i)
Conductors shall be spliced or joined with splicing devices identified for the use or by brazing, welding, or soldering with a fusible metal or alloy. Soldered splices shall first be spliced or joined to be mechanically and electrically secure without solder and then soldered. All splices and joints and the free ends of conductors shall be covered with an insulation equivalent to that of the conductors or with an insulating device identified for the purpose.

Why does it matter? Solder typically melts around 360F which is a lot lower than wire could get if short circuited.
David, I have to agree about your aircraft comment in general; however I have often wondered about aircraft wiring standards (which I do have a reasonable knowledge of) compared to marine standards.
I am not aware of any "aviation standards" that are less suitable than "marine standards" but of course there may be some and I have often thought of what they might be (leaving aside the capton wire problems).

FWIW, I have noticed there is a big difference between the aviation world of privately owner aircraft and privately owned vessels and that is the absence of adherance to the relevant standards in a reasonable number of the boats (especially older ones); if not by the orginial builder, then by subsequent owners and/or "tradesmen".
While I occasionally see some poor practices and materials on old aircraft wiring (usually minor, but not always), I often see wiring of old and not so old boats that make me shudder and I can only hope that the rest of the vessel is better fitted out and maintained (and the skipper is able to sail without electricity)!!!!! It wouldn't matter how much the wire was tinned

As to soldering, my reading of the quoted regs seems only to refer to soldered splices, not terminations etc. The requirement for the splice to be "mechanically and electrically secure" secure before soldering is more about strength and security in a dynamic enviroment rather then heat. I bet that some would consider twisting the wires together before soldering would meet this requirement - I don't.

If the wiring is getting up to 360 F, one has much bigger problems than the soldered joint letting go. The insulation is failing by then and if the heat is generated by a fault in the wiring, then the circuit breakers / fuses aren't doing their job. If the heat is external, I think one will be having a bad day anyway.

Sorry I appear to be nit picking, it is a bad habit of mine - I perfer to call it pedantic - and it is not a bad thing when it comes to wiring in my VERY humble opinion.
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Old 07-06-2008, 19:41   #53
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No problem Wot. I don't think you were being too picky. Healthy respectful debate is always a good thing. It's one of the ways we learn.

For aircraft, weight is much more critical, therefore accommodations must be made to shave weight..right? Well, for boats weight is not as critical, so things can be made more beefy in general. Also, aircraft generally are not exposed to buckets of salt water thrown on them. So except for perhaps a naval aircraft on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier during a storm, boats are subject to a lot more corrosive salt water and salt air, overall.

I'm not saying one standard is better than another. I am just saying they are different because the service and the environments are different. Also, the costs associated with aviation are a lot higher because a failure in the air is potentially much worse than a failure at sea. So cost effectiveness is another issue.

I know for a fact the Coasties do not like to see a splice between wires such as where you might use a butt connector. Continuous runs of wire are far superior. Been there, done that. I also know they do not allow soldered only terminals such as to a ring connector.

If the wire melts the solder then yes, you do have problems. Hopefully your breaker kicked out before it ever got this far but that does not always happen. But why risk a loose end that was soldered only, from touching another perfectly good circuit and possibly risk shorting out that circuit or over voltaging that circuit? This is the reason mechanical connections are required, because of the melting point of solder and newly loose wires screwing up something else that would still be functioning if it had been connected by mechanical means. I'm sure you have seen how crowded the backside of some DC panels are and you can imagine how much trouble a loose previously soldered DC wire has the potential of causing.

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Old 08-06-2008, 04:45   #54
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Quote:
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May I add - and only deviate from them at your own risk
... As to soldering, my reading of the quoted regs seems only to refer to soldered splices, not terminations etc. The requirement for the splice to be "mechanically and electrically secure" secure before soldering is more about strength and security in a dynamic enviroment rather then heat...
The solder-only prohibition refers to all connections, including both terminations and splices.

Excerpted from ABYC Section E-11.16 System Wiring (2003):

<quote>
11.16.1.2.2. The construction of insulated cables and conductors shall conform with the requirements of:
11.16.1.2.2.1. UL 1426, Cables for Boats,
or
11.16.1.2.2.2. the insulating material temperature rating requirements of:
11.16.1.2.2.2.1. SAE J378, Marine Engine Wiring,
and
11.16.1.2.2.2.2. SAE J1127, Battery Cable, or SAE J1128, Low-Tension Primary Cable.

... And:

11.16.3.7. Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit. If soldered, the connection shall be so located or supported as to minimize flexing of the conductor where the solder changes the flexible conductor into a solid conductor.

EXCEPTION: Battery lugs with a solder contact length of not less than 1.5 times the diameter of the conductor.

NOTE: When a stranded conductor is soldered, the soldered portion of the conductor becomes a solid strand conductor, and flexing can cause the conductor to break at the end of the solder joint unless adequate additional support is provided...
<end quote>
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Old 08-06-2008, 06:00   #55
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May I humbly add...the best is the best that you can afford and do. It should be incumbent on all off us to offer, and to be careful that we dont paint to dark a picture. It would be dishonest to suggest that immernant failure is the result of not following the "BEST" guidelines. This is one of many boat systems. The cost (for example) of fully tinned wire is far less important to me than a simple epirp..

Perhaps logic should be kinder...thems that have talk...thems that havnt.....are confused and scared,,,
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Old 08-06-2008, 07:37   #56
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May I humbly add...the best is the best that you can afford and do. ....
Very true Coop. and one of the reasons I like owning a boat - can't just only do your best you with a car, bike or plane.

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...For aircraft, weight is much more critical, therefore accommodations must be made to shave weight..right? .....David
Yup, we always use the lightest gauge wire possible and as the generators are ALWAYS on line (well, almost always, one hopes), the bus voltage is always maximum. I could never use such light gauges on my boat.

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The solder-only prohibition refers to all connections, including both terminations and splices.......
Thanks for clarifying that, Gord.
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Old 08-06-2008, 19:39   #57
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OK, who exactly are you quoting there? I didn't see anybody in this thread say such a thing.

People get excited about wire because it is a safety issue. Those wire runs that are "almost" fine are the ones that just might start a fire.
With 4 pages of posts so far on this subject there have been several posts recommending above standard installations. It was incorrect of me to quote but I don't think the paraphrase is entirely inaccurate.

The "almost" fine circuits are predominantly previous owner circuits. The original manufacturer installations are fine after 27+ years. And we are talking wiring standard and practices from 1981.

All of which underscores my belief, and that is to follow the standards accurately, no more no less.

Regarding aviation wiring, I won't get into a debate as to what standard may be better but I don't consider the environments much different (remember a/c standard cover seaplanes) and I have to say that every aircraft installation I have seen is much better than any boat installation I have seen. And I have seen aviation installations still working fine that were installed in 1946.

I'll rest with what Gord said. Follow the standard.
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