Tesla House Battery

[savoir]

Originally Posted by Garrettw

Wow, lots of crazy in this post, but one item in particular since the topic was a Tesla: maybe you don't understand but SpaceX is an independent company. They don't have anything to do with Tesla. And they would probably be shocked to hear of these "crashes" given that they under the assumption that the last 5 launches in the past three months have all been fine.

Lots of crazy ? Really ?

Spacex Falcon 9 rocket explodes September 22 2014
https://www.space.com/26921-spacex-r...xas-video.html
SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket explodes June 29 2015
https://spaceflightnow.com/2015/07/2...con-9-failure/
SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket explodes September 1 2016
https://www.theverge.com/2016/9/1/12...averal-florida
SpaceX rocket engine explodes November 2017
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.232ed519fe1b
SpaceX rocket disappears in flight
Zuma spacecraft launched by SpaceX is lost after failing to enter stable orbit - Jan. 9, 2018

Everyone is lying about the last failure so we can't be sure what went wrong apart from saying that the rocket has disappeared. Both the November 2017 and January 2018 failures were within the last three months and not fine at all.

Crazy ? Not really ?

[Garrettw]

Originally Posted by savoir

Lots of crazy ? Really ?

Spacex Falcon 9 rocket explodes September 22 2014
https://www.space.com/26921-spacex-r...xas-video.html
SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket explodes June 29 2015
https://spaceflightnow.com/2015/07/2...con-9-failure/
SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket explodes September 1 2016
https://www.theverge.com/2016/9/1/12...averal-florida
SpaceX rocket engine explodes November 2017
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.232ed519fe1b
SpaceX rocket disappears in flight
Zuma spacecraft launched by SpaceX is lost after failing to enter stable orbit - Jan. 9, 2018

Everyone is lying about the last failure so we can't be sure what went wrong apart from saying that the rocket has disappeared. Both the November 2017 and January 2018 failures were within the last three months and not fine at all.

Crazy ? Not really ?

So you're saying there is a conspiracy to cover up a SpaceX "crash" with Zuma, even though other experts, including the Air Force are saying that their equipment operated properly? Additionall, that there is some sort of other secret "crash" that happened (or are you claiming that the Merlin prototype engine failure is a "crash"?) You understand why manufacturers test prototypes right? It all seems a little tin foil hat-ish, I guess, but I've taken stuff way off topic for too long here. You can have the last word if you want; I'll bow out to get the thread back on track.

[406Columbia]

Originally Posted by Garrettw

I'm trying to get you to actually articulate your real argument. Facilitating growth of us industry in its nascent stages has always been the role of government subsidies and it seems to be having the desired effect in aerospace and high efficiency autos. So you either arguing that the government shouldn't be doing that or you are arguing that you just don't like SpaceX and Tesla. If the latter is the case, given that you are American, I would ask you if you support American jobs and US domination of a particular sector. What I actually suspect is that you have been convinced that you shouldn't like Elon Musk but don't really know why and so have decided that you don't like his companies but haven't really thought out the implications of your position.

Shoot, I might not like Elon Musk either, but I sure as hell support the US crushing the competition in rocket technology and cost as well as adding 33000 mostly blue collar, skilled manufacturing jobs to the economy. What American doesn't like those things?

I have clearly voiced my concerns, a lack of return on investment. It appears you may not have read and familiarized yourself with the articles I linked or aren't aware of the performance of the companies elon musk is involved with.

Regarding the desired effect, I don't believe we are actually getting the desired effect. The desired effect is not a poor performing product that comes in over budget and years behind schedule with no end in sight is it? Because that is what Tesla and SpaceX are providing. All personal feelings aside the actual numbers and deliverables don't lie.

The reality is that I can still be pro American and not support government subsidies to poor performers or at all outside national security programs. Perhaps another example is Amazon where all of their shipping is subsidized. Yet they are constantly reducing actual jobs by automating their shipping program.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-the...trending_now_1
I am all for American dominance in as many sectors as possible. However we need to take a serious look at who we are funding, for what purpose and what sort of return we obtain on such a precious and limited resource. This considering that we operate at a deficit 90% (1972-2015) of the time.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikepat.../#c51195137c04

[DeepFrz]

Here is what can happen if you don't follow proper procedures when using Tesla batteries.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdDi1haA71Q

[john61ct]

Problem is also those "proper procedures" need to be invented / figured out as we go, and same with the infrastructure required.

[DeepFrz]

He says near the end of the video what they didn't do.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Problem is also those "proper procedures" need to be invented / figured out as we go, and same with the infrastructure required.

or do the right thing from the get go and use lifepo4 cells to build our banks.
You can't push the boat out of the garage .

Deepfrz
Thanks for that informative and entertaining video.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Deepfrz
Thanks for that informative and entertaining video.

Entertaining is one way to describe it. Maybe enlightening?

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Entertaining is one way to describe it. Maybe enlightening?

yes the information was enlightening however the way they cirque the activity on camera is quite entertaining.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by newhaul

or do the right thing from the get go and use lifepo4 cells to build our banks.

Well yes, that's my point, and constantly being told I'm just being negative, or against "innovation" or something.

Science projects should stay in the back shed and perfected before going into production. Ultra cautious is just being sensible in any mobile application.

[john61ct]

From a Las Vegas EV convention.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMlfBKd_hz8

Listen to his notes on the Temp Management engineering.

People wanting to re-purpose scrapped EV battery modules, because "they're cheaper" than LFP. Pffft. . .

[ssmoot]

Originally Posted by john61ct

People wanting to re-purpose scrapped EV battery modules, because "they're cheaper" than LFP. Pffft. . .

I agree that Tesla batteries seem pretty risky. Fires aren't exactly common, but they aren't unheard of either.

The Nissan Leaf batteries OTOH have had no documented cases of thermal runaway that I could find. The only report I could find of a Leaf catching fire didn't appear to come from the batteries, and looking at the photos of the event appear to confirm that as the fire is under the hood where there are no batteries (except. the 12V system?).

I've also seen videos of Leaf batteries punctured, burned, overcharged and generally imaginatively abused with no spectacular thermal runaways or other obvious notable damage. Surprisingly these batteries also seemed to still function! I would've imagined an internal short of some sort would've at least diminished capacity significantly even if it didn't affect voltage, but that doesn't appear to be the case.

Since Leaf batteries are air-cooled, and easily made into 48V packs, I'm not sure I've seen a better fit for boats for the price/performance.

Leaf batteries definitely aren't known for their long-term durability, but given the price, weight and factory capacity you could afford a whole lot of degradation before considering a replacement necessary, and by that point you'll probably have a better option available to you anyway.

This is all about the first generation packs BTW. The second generation 30kWh packs appear to degrade even faster than the first so I don't see a good reason to even consider them.

So Leaf batteries: Not a great battery for EVs ironically, but maybe pretty compelling option for boats.

[DeepFrz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of01p0Q-yUM

More clarification on what went wrong.

[tanglewood]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

More clarification on what went wrong.

Not what got it started, but they were forthright that there was no BMS and no cooling, both of which are require for safe operation. So any of many miss-steps could have set it off.

[john61ct]

Does an OTS BMS even exist suitable for Tesla packs to be used as a House bank? If so, please link. . .

Would it integrate with the thermal management system, which I believe must also be home-made?