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Old 24-04-2013, 10:03   #31
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Re: Starter Motor Fails When Hot

I did not realize this is a Lister diesel. The starter on that engine needs 375 amps to start the engine or 6 horsepower. You could go with an air starter, but those need 4 cubic feet per second at 150 pounds per square inch: Complete line of new starters and replacement parts for the: 3AM, 3BM, 5AM, 5BM. Air Starter Sales And Service
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Old 24-04-2013, 10:31   #32
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Re: Starter Motor Fails When Hot

Sounds like a Pontiac GTO [ 70's] problem !!!! A common problem as the exhaust runs right by the starter solenoid, sometimes corrected with a heat shield on the solenoid [asbestos is good but we are not allowed to talk about it !] Always embarrasing when you stop for gas and it wont re start for 30 or 40 minutes. Bruce.
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Old 24-04-2013, 12:14   #33
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Re: Starter Motor Fails When Hot

Avayak, jeez pal your getting everything on here from 'hot spots' to premature ejaculation' am I on the wrong forum ?
Seriously, Spring starters can be used for example on engines infrequently started, heavy plant, sometimes this heavy plant has a spring starter for a donkey engine which is then used to start the main engine, they are useful for long distance sailors etc but for frequent use a well set up electrical starter is the way to go.
If you need to look for a repair shop have a chat with a local haulage company or motor factors and they will put you in touch. The problem with boats of course is that we always try to squeeze a quart in a pint pot.
Forget the starter and have tinny and think about it ! cheers.
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Old 24-04-2013, 20:42   #34
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Re: Starter Motor Fails When Hot

Just had another thought. What if this is an alternator problem, or a sulfation problem where the batteries have lost their ability to take a charge so have a low capacity. If the alternator has a blown diode with low amperage and low voltage, it would be possible to have enough battery to start the engine, but low voltage would not charge the battery. After shutdown, there would not be enough to start the engine. After sitting discharged battery plates recover some ability to supply amps because of changes in the crystaline structure of the lead sulfate near the surface of the plates allows some of the part of the active lead, lead oxide material deeper in the plate to work itself some to the surface and allow enough to start the engine.

What all this means is be sure the batteries are not sulfated and/or discharged. Use a hydrometer to test the battery cells: Dorman 9-1302 Hydrometer : Amazon.com : Automotive Another test would be to check the voltage output from the alternator, or without anything charging the batteries, turn on some lights, fans, anything to discharge the batteries, see how many amps are being used from the types of items drawing current and see how long the batteries last. A third thing to try is just put a voltmeter on the battery terminals while cranking and see if the voltage stays steady, at least above ten volts.
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Old 24-04-2013, 22:01   #35
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Re: Starter Motor Fails When Hot

I don't wish to complicate matters but battery charging is a whole new ballgame. I'll try to simplify it. Most alternators are machine sensed and live in a nice warm car engine compartment with short wiring runs. When you start your car the regulator tells the alternator to replace the start charge over 20 mins, then puts in a trickle charge, if you turn on lights/aircon ie any electrical appliance it then increases the output to compensate. With me so far ?
A battery sensed alternator senses the charge at the battery and the regulator tells the alternator to replace the charge accordingly.
Machine sensed alternators are rarely sold because there is a relatively small demand for them.
What can you do about it ?
You can now fit systems that will turn your alternator into a machine sensed alternator with built in anti-sulphation using microchips.
The principle was first discovered by a Swedish outside broadcast electrician and he invented the original TWC (his initials) to solve a constant problem of flat battery's, his alternator controller did 2 essential things, it introduced pulse charging to battery technology and changed an alternator from machine sensed to battery sensed.
How can you get one ?
There are 2 companies that I know off that produce systems today.
Adverc in Birmingham England bought the original patent and continually update it and build it's systems in their own factory in England.
The other is a company called Sterling who copied it, it's systems are made in Korea.
Both companies have representation in the USA, Australia and other countries.
It's up to you which company you wish to contact if you need further information.
I hope this is informative for you.
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Old 25-04-2013, 06:34   #36
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Re: Starter Motor Fails When Hot

westwinds-
"When you hear hoofbeats, think horses not zebras."
He's got all the classic signs of starter failure and they are classic and specific. If his alternator and battery were the problem, it would never recover enough to spin him up, and that would not vary so neatly with the heat.
Even with a bad diode, the alternator would put out more power while running and the battery would be stronger for the restart.
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Old 25-04-2013, 10:27   #37
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Re: Starter Motor Fails When Hot

From my experience, I find it costs a lot less money to do some trouble shooting before pulling parts and replacing, to think of all possibilities. It probably is more likely that the starter is at fault and I did post about checking that out; however, it takes some effort to check the battery and alternator. As a very minimum, start the engine, run it a few minutes and then check to see if the voltage at the battery is about 14.2 volts. This varies some with temperature as most regulators are temperature compensated and put out a little less voltage when above 20 Celsius or 68 Fahrenheit and more when below this temperature. I prefer a hydrometer for testing as bad cells can be detected before an old battery actually quits and this also detects sulfation if cells are in the red and the voltage is 14.2 while engine is at idle, just charging a little. This is an issue as a battery that sits with no smart charging will go bad in a few months. If a battery gets discharged more than half way just sitting and sulfating, you cannot get it back to full charge. Go buy a new battery. A small solar panel of twenty watts with controller is a good investment.
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Old 25-04-2013, 15:24   #38
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Re: Starter Motor Fails When Hot

westwinds, I agree with the principle but in this case, ignoring a specific failure symptom and wasting time on things that literally cannot be part of the problem? Is just wasting time. Sometimes symptoms are so specific that there can only be one problem, and in my experience, his symptoms are specific to a starter that needs rebuild.

Learned that in a white suit on the way to a wedding the first time around. YOU try monkeying with a starter while you're in a white suit. Makes it memorable.
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Old 25-04-2013, 16:06   #39
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Re: Starter Motor Fails When Hot

We shall see. I have found in trying to contribute to fixing a mechanical problem on line really has its limits. It's all up to the OP to do the troubleshooting, who may not be up to spotting the subtle clues that are there unless told explicitly what to do. Mechanical things are complicated so I try to keep an open mind and think of may things.
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Old 14-05-2013, 10:14   #40
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Re: Starter Motor Fails When Hot

This is a very long thread for something simple to diagnose. The starter drive is bad if the starter spins but doesn't crank the engine. If "puny" spin it could be loose or corroded connection. Check the voltage drop across connections and finally replace starter or rebuild.
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Old 14-05-2013, 16:38   #41
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Re: Starter Motor Fails When Hot

Thanks for summary of options, and sorry to other contributors for not reporting back earlier on suggestions. I took the boat for a run to recreate the hot engine scenario then returned to my mooring and killed the engine. As was happening the starter once again failed to run properly and I was unable to start the engine. Using a can of a Loctite product for snap freezing nuts to assist their release I cooled the starter motor as per suggestions. After a few squirts or rather dousings, the starter had cooled sufficiently and operated ok and the engine cranked. With that confirmation that it was the starter motor and not an earth leak or poor connection. I removed the starter and took it to an auto electrician recommended by a well respected marine diesel mechanic. I was quickly pointed in the direction of a new starter rather than a rebuild due to the type of starter and the cost of repairs which would have required the motor to be sent interstate. They sold me a new starter with warranty which had been in stock for many years at a little over a third of the price of the current new price replacement cost. The problems of ageing engines and the cost of rare spares. Once fitted all problems were resolved and I realised that the old starter was lazy even when cold.
Having fully examined the spring starter option which is available for the old Lister engine I am happy with my decision to replace the electric start. Much simpler from an every day usage perspective given the limited accessibility of the engine. However, from a failsafe starting perspective the spring start option clearly has a place. Thanks to all for contributing to the discussion.
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Old 14-05-2013, 17:15   #42
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Re: Starter Motor Fails When Hot

Thanks for the first report on how well the Loctite freeze spray works! I've been meaning to lay away a can of that since it is rather dear to use my CO2 bottle for icing things down.

Sounds like the shop did good by you.
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Old 14-05-2013, 22:02   #43
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Re: Starter Motor Fails When Hot

Well done Avayak for getting sorted. I originally mentioned spring starters in this thread because quite simply many people were not aware that such a thing existed, I also pointed out that they were not a replacement for a well set up electrical system, but an alternative.
Sometimes there's a lot of mental masturbation on cause and effect on these forums which can be very 'enlightening' but that's part of the fun too.
Now I'll muddy the waters a bit more, for those who use a Lister as a genset there's a system called Start-o-matic which means that with the genset off, when you switch on a light(or any other appliance) the genset starts automatically, when no load is present it shuts down automatically. This system has been around in Britain/Ireland for years.
Very durable and versatile those old Lister engines.
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Old 15-05-2013, 00:40   #44
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Re: Starter Motor Fails When Hot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish rambler View Post
Well done Avayak for getting sorted. I originally mentioned spring starters in this thread because quite simply many people were not aware that such a thing existed, I also pointed out that they were not a replacement for a well set up electrical system, but an alternative.
Sometimes there's a lot of mental masturbation on cause and effect on these forums which can be very 'enlightening' but that's part of the fun too.
Now I'll muddy the waters a bit more, for those who use a Lister as a genset there's a system called Start-o-matic which means that with the genset off, when you switch on a light(or any other appliance) the genset starts automatically, when no load is present it shuts down automatically. This system has been around in Britain/Ireland for years.
Very durable and versatile those old Lister engines.
It's on boats too, has been since the late 50's, Ive restored a couple of mag.switches

If you like lister/petter go to Microcogen.info/***/SOMRAD Forums - Index

Lloyd
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Old 15-05-2013, 07:29   #45
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Re: Starter Motor Fails When Hot

Automatic genset starters are more commonly found on powerboat gensets in the US, since sailboats are typically small (90% under 28' OAL?) and fuel and space for gensets isn't really there until you start getting into larger boats and proper Yachts.
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