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Old 23-04-2013, 22:52   #16
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Thanks Westwinds, very interesting, there is a remote solenoid which is mounted reasonably close to the engine. However it doesn't have battery sized (AWG 1) cables attached they are more like AWG 8. A still lighter wire goes back to starter switch. The solenoid is fed from the heavy starter terminal and feeds back into a lighter terminal. As you have said this then activates a solenoid / electro magnetic switch in the starter motor head which brings in the high current flow from the batteries.
I will check that remote small solenoid in the manner you describe (I'm a boy so will use my heat gun as I don't have a hair dryer ) and will gladly throw some cold water on it if it misbehaves.
Beyond that its arthritis pills and get the starter out. There is no access to the brushes where it is.
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Old 23-04-2013, 23:16   #17
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Thanks Andrew, I never realised how quickly such great information could flow simply for the asking. All you guys are great!
I'm learning heaps.
I don't think it's premature ejection cos I don't think it's getting it up there to start with no quick in and out which I imagine would leave it whirring enthusiastically. Alas it merely whirls dejectedly from the moment it's button is pressed.
I think you are on to something with the bit of age thing the brush probably isn't as as healthy as once was.
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Old 23-04-2013, 23:26   #18
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Thanks Deckofficer, full of admiration for the persistence of men when it comes to solving problems. Love it. Well done with your hot rod problem.
The old Lister HRW6 ain't no hot rod, and its all original starter and flywheel.
The idea of cooling things down as a diagnostic tool was brought up by Westwinds in the next thread.
What a wonderfully cheap and readily available diagnostic tool.
Thank you
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Old 23-04-2013, 23:30   #19
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Re: Starter motor fails when hot

Misting a hot part does of course work better in a dry climate, low humidity.
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Old 23-04-2013, 23:31   #20
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Re: Starter motor fails when hot

Avayak, Good advice from all your buddies on here. Just as an aside, did you know that you can get 'Spring starters', they wind up with a ratchet, hit the button and your motor spins over, or 'Air starters' where you pump up a pressure cylinder, open a valve and that turns the motor over. I've used both types, usually fitted on heavy plant and donkey engines that lie idle for weeks, very useful for long range cruisers with limited electrical supply.
I hope this help someone.
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Old 23-04-2013, 23:36   #21
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Re: Starter motor fails when hot

Just feel lucky that you have a Bosch starter and not a Lucas.
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Old 23-04-2013, 23:43   #22
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Hi Irish Ramblet, for a second I thought you were winding me up. Spring Starters however, I have come across air starters. A spring starter might not be a strong selling point in a modern boat, but I can see the KISS value.
Do you know if any spring starters were made as a substitute for emergency crank handles?
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Old 24-04-2013, 02:18   #23
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Re: Starter motor fails when hot

Thanks Avayak for dotting all the I's & crossing the t's for us

Nobody could ever accuse a Lister of having a light flywheel, so I doubt you'll ever have to worry about premature ejection!

Spring starters are available even for motors too big for hand cranking, although on bigger motors air starters, and on very big motors hydraulic starters (still hand pumped) are used instead.

Spring starters are optional supply on lifeboat diesel motors, certainly up to 50 hp but maybe more, so they are not reliant on electrics.

They're also quite often fitted to standby emergency gensets, hospital and airport essential systems (compressors, pumps, and such)
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Old 24-04-2013, 08:37   #24
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Re: Starter Motor Fails When Hot

If you have a voltmeter or multimeter, you could attach one probe to the battery and the other to the starter terminal and crank. First try a 15 volt range on the selector, or something close to that. If the voltage is greater than half a volt, you have a terminal, wire or starter solenoid with a high resistance. Check for melted insulation at terminals. If none, then as soon as you stop cranking, run your hand lightly over terminals looking for hot spots. I say lightly with the hand as you can get thermal burns if a terminal is hot. Also check the negative side of the battery, battery post (terminal) to engine (ground) for voltage drop. Do these tests from actual post on the battery as terminals on the post can also have an electrical resistance that is too high. Another way to check for resistance is to work your way along the conductive path. Go from the battery post to the solenoid terminal and crank, then while cranking go from one side of the solenoid to the other, then from the solenoid terminal on the other side to the starter. Also negative battery post to ground. On the engine ground, make sure you have a good metal to probe contact. The starter could be shorted. If you have an amp meter that can go around the battery cable where the amps if above 200, more like 500, then the starter is shorted. Also, those light gauge battery cables on the starter, solenoid, battery circuit will get quite warm if the starter is shorted. Probably what you should do is pull the starter and have it tested. A starter will turn slowly if shorted, not quickly enough to engage the bendix gear to flywheel ring gear.

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Old 24-04-2013, 09:08   #25
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Re: Starter Motor Fails When Hot

Ava, as westwinds says, the heat from the engine can heat soak the starter, same end result that heat expands metal and causes a failure. THe only way I've heard to confirm that without dropping the starter, is to ice it down with aq CO2 extinguisher, which cools it fast, and see if that "fixes" it. These days a CO2 extinguisher costs so much to refill that I'd say just pull the starter, a shap can take of one end and tell you what's doing very quickly. There's usually ground metal dust inside if it has worn, and other obvious symptoms of a problem.
Cold fresh water...depending on how well it got in there, and whether the water itself caused problems...your mileage may vary.
Sometimes someone has used the wrong starter, omitted a heat shield, or run an exhuast pipe too close, and starters can be killed by a wrong installation that causes them to overheat. Not so likely on a boat, but they are still always heat sensitive.
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Old 24-04-2013, 09:22   #26
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Hi Westwinds, I do have a multimeter but not a clamp. I will run the tests you suggested first when the engine is cold and then give the boat a good run and return to my mooring before stopping the engine. I will then repeat the tests and note the results. If there are no obvious hot spots or drops on the wiring I will first cool the small solenoid and check it, finally I will cool the solenoid / electro magnet end of the starter and re test. I guess it could easily be the case that it is not a single fault. I will post the results of the tests in about a week when I've ha a chance to do them as a way of saying thanks to everyone for their contributions.
I have been researching spring starters and there is one readily available for the Lister HR6. I have made enquiries on the cost and once I've got specific info on the amount of space required to turn the winder I will consider it further as an alternative, especially if I become faced with the cost of a new starter.
Once again thanks for you time and input.
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Old 24-04-2013, 09:29   #27
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Re: Starter Motor Fails When Hot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avayak View Post
...faced with the cost of a new starter.
It is possible to rebuild a starter; however, the problem is finding someone who knows how to do a good job.
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Old 24-04-2013, 09:38   #28
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Hi Andrew and Irish rambler
I am less ignorant tonight than I was this morning so that's gotta be a good day. I have been researching spring starters on the net, and now appreciate their range of applications and peculiar advantages. A Simms spring starter is available for my engine so I have under taken some enquiries. I am attracted to the more failsafe aspects of the spring starter, however, the engine's location may rule it out due to lack of space to wind the handle and the disincentive of some arthritic joints which would be challenged by getting into the bilge each time I wanted to start the engine. I think it could dissuade me from abandoning unproductive fishing spots. I will keep the forum posted.
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Old 24-04-2013, 09:38   #29
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Re: Starter Motor Fails When Hot

btw, sometimes the problem is from the starter being "stuck" on a high spot on the windings when it is hot. In which case if you thump on it a few times with a heavy tool, you can often get it unstuck and it will spin up on the next try. So perhaps, give it a whack and see if that "fixes" it.

Then when you find a shop, take a look at it. If the place is a greasy mess--walk on. If they're keeping the shop clean, the odds are they do a clean job on the rebuilds as well.
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Old 24-04-2013, 09:53   #30
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Sounds fair HelloSsilor, i will add a healthy whack into the forthcoming diagnostic trail, and when the time comes get advice from some of the local marine mechanics as to whom I should take the starter. You never know where you will find a well skilled person.
I was recently put on to a wiz of a propeller engineer in a local regional city who does the bulk of his business in agricultural pumps.
Despite the scale of his business his analysis of the right prop for my boat was significantly more accurate than a nationally established propeller company.
Cheers
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