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Old 19-07-2012, 07:04   #1
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Splendide washer on inverter - what works?

Brought this up a year or more ago in another thread, but thought I'd focus in on the problem, or preferably the solution. I have a splendide washer and Mastervolt inverter. Because of the load size, the washer is not wired to run off the inverter, but rather uses a dedicated circuit powered by shore power or my genset.

The problem is that even on shore or gen power, if the inverter is turned on, the washer spazes out and runs in an infinite drain loop. The workaround has been to turn off the inverter when i need to do laundry, which means i lose the charger function which normally operating at that time. I also need to bypass the inverter AC to power the outlets normally powered through the inverter. Its a real nusance, and ive tried all forms of ferrite cores etc.

I'm contemplating replacing the inverter/charger with another brand, but want to have some confidence that it will work before i go to the trouble and expense.

So the question is (finally), who's operating a Splendide washer, and what make model inverter do you have? I'm looking combination that are demonstrated to work.

Thanks
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Old 19-07-2012, 08:00   #2
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Re: Splendide washer on inverter - what works?

The problem may be with the neutrals (or ground if you like).

The incoming shore power is isolated from the inverter outputs on the hot side, but I will bet that they share a common neutral on your boat. This doesn't usually cause a problem, but maybe the electronic controller in the Splendide doesn't like it.

The solution is fairly simple. Separate the neutrals so that the shorepower powered circuits have one neutral and the inverter powered circuits have a separate neutral POWERED THROUGH THE INVERTER.

Since you probably only have a few shorepower powerd cicuits, lift their neutrals from the panel buss and temporarily clamp them together (and wrap with electricians tape). Then try the Splendide. If it works, then install a more permanent shorepower neutral buss.

David
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Old 19-07-2012, 09:28   #3
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Re: Splendide washer on inverter - what works?

We have a MS2000 xantrex and it work no problem at the dock or on pure inverter
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Old 19-07-2012, 10:17   #4
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Re: Splendide washer on inverter - what works?

We have Trace/Xantrex PS2524 in series with the shore/gen power. Inverter is always on and passes through the shore/gen power when it is available. Our Splendide only likes the pass-through power from the shore or our diesel gen power. It does not like power from the inverter or our little inverter-based Honda.

Please describe what you've tried with ferrites. Did you put one on the power supply of the control module itself?
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Old 19-07-2012, 10:48   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayH
We have Trace/Xantrex PS2524 in series with the shore/gen power. Inverter is always on and passes through the shore/gen power when it is available. Our Splendide only likes the pass-through power from the shore or our diesel gen power. It does not like power from the inverter or our little inverter-based Honda.

Please describe what you've tried with ferrites. Did you put one on the power supply of the control module itself?
I tried ferrites on:

1) the plug end of the washer power cord

2) the washer end of the power cord

3) the AC in lines at the inverter.

Just to reiterate, my washer is NOT wired to the AC-out of the inverter. Its wired in parallel with the AC-in, but on a separate and dedicated breaker.
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Old 19-07-2012, 22:57   #6
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Re: Splendide washer on inverter - what works?

Kinda hard to help without a wiring diagram, isn't it?
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Old 20-07-2012, 00:34   #7
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Re: Splendide washer on inverter - what works?

Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post
Brought this up a year or more ago in another thread, but thought I'd focus in on the problem, or preferably the solution. I have a splendide washer and Mastervolt inverter. Because of the load size, the washer is not wired to run off the inverter, but rather uses a dedicated circuit powered by shore power or my genset.

The problem is that even on shore or gen power, if the inverter is turned on, the washer spazes out and runs in an infinite drain loop. The workaround has been to turn off the inverter when i need to do laundry, which means i lose the charger function which normally operating at that time. I also need to bypass the inverter AC to power the outlets normally powered through the inverter. Its a real nusance, and ive tried all forms of ferrite cores etc.

I'm contemplating replacing the inverter/charger with another brand, but want to have some confidence that it will work before i go to the trouble and expense.

So the question is (finally), who's operating a Splendide washer, and what make model inverter do you have? I'm looking combination that are demonstrated to work.

Thanks

I'm willing to bet that you have a ground loop. First check the the ground switching relay on the inverter, next up would be to check for a cross wired neutral to ground.

It's sounds something like a GFCI fault.

Lloyd
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Old 20-07-2012, 00:41   #8
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Red face Re: Splendide washer on inverter - what works?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayH View Post
We have Trace/Xantrex PS2524 in series with the shore/gen power. Inverter is always on and passes through the shore/gen power when it is available. Our Splendide only likes the pass-through power from the shore or our diesel gen power. It does not like power from the inverter or our little inverter-based Honda.

Please describe what you've tried with ferrites. Did you put one on the power supply of the control module itself?
A trace carries almost 60 volt potential between N - G but it can't support any current.

After "xantrex" purchased "Trace", they eliminated the N isolation, a GSR, especially if it wasn't mobile equipment.

ya get what ya pay for, sometimes,...but in those days if ya bought trace/xantrex..ya didn't get what ya payed for.

Lloyd
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Old 20-07-2012, 06:36   #9
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Re: Splendide washer on inverter - what works?

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I'm willing to bet that you have a ground loop. First check the the ground switching relay on the inverter, next up would be to check for a cross wired neutral to ground.

It's sounds something like a GFCI fault.

Lloyd
I went back and checked for the umpteenth time, and I think all is wired correctly.

- There is a central grounding bus bar and all grounds return there

- There is a main Neutral bus bar where all the neutrals go EXCEPT those circuits on the inverter output side.

- The main neutral bus bar is isolated from ground, and becomes grounded in two possible ways. a) via the shore wiring when plugged into shore power and the shore breaker is closed. In this case, there is an isolator between the shore and ship ground. b) Via the genset when the genset break is closed. I believe this is all correct, yielding a single neutral to ground connection appropriate for, and depending on the power source.

- The inverter output-side circuits come back to a separate neutral bus bar. The inverter neutral bus bar is either a) tied to the main neutral bus bar when there is AC applied to the inverter input, or b) tied to ground via a relay internal to the inverter when the inverter is the only source of power. I think this is also all correct resulting in a single neutral to ground bonding point at all times.

- I double checked to be sure all the AC branch circuits are tied to the correct bus bar, and they all are.

This is far from the first time that I've encountered devices that appear to rely too much on a perfectly timed and shaped AC waveform, and have trouble running off an imperfect power source.

I think I know this stuff pretty well and have checked it all out, but it also wouldn't be the first time a problem was staring me in the face and I didn't see it, so I still welcome the comments and suggestions, and it did prompt me to go back and check again.

I keep coming back to concluding that the inverter is conducting noise through it's AC Input which is being picked up by and confusing the washer. I don't think there is any way to nail it down for sure without a scope, and I don't have one.
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Old 20-07-2012, 11:19   #10
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Re: Splendide washer on inverter - what works?

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Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post
I went back and checked for the umpteenth time, and I think all is wired correctly.

- There is a central grounding bus bar and all grounds return there

- There is a main Neutral bus bar where all the neutrals go EXCEPT those circuits on the inverter output side.

- The main neutral bus bar is isolated from ground, and becomes grounded in two possible ways. a) via the shore wiring when plugged into shore power and the shore breaker is closed. In this case, there is an isolator between the shore and ship ground. b) Via the genset when the genset break is closed. I believe this is all correct, yielding a single neutral to ground connection appropriate for, and depending on the power source.

- The inverter output-side circuits come back to a separate neutral bus bar. The inverter neutral bus bar is either a) tied to the main neutral bus bar when there is AC applied to the inverter input, or b) tied to ground via a relay internal to the inverter when the inverter is the only source of power. I think this is also all correct resulting in a single neutral to ground bonding point at all times.

- I double checked to be sure all the AC branch circuits are tied to the correct bus bar, and they all are.

This is far from the first time that I've encountered devices that appear to rely too much on a perfectly timed and shaped AC waveform, and have trouble running off an imperfect power source.

I think I know this stuff pretty well and have checked it all out, but it also wouldn't be the first time a problem was staring me in the face and I didn't see it, so I still welcome the comments and suggestions, and it did prompt me to go back and check again.

I keep coming back to concluding that the inverter is conducting noise through it's AC Input which is being picked up by and confusing the washer. I don't think there is any way to nail it down for sure without a scope, and I don't have one.
Foggy,

Is your inverter a marine inverter, a RV inverter, a Mobile Inverter, or a land inverter?

Does it have an internal ground switching relay?

Trace/Xantrex Mobile/RV and land inverters don't have GSR, they also have the neutral for output and input tied together with a bus jumper.

I have even seen their Marine Units lacking the GSR, and the neutrals tied together, which tells me it was an RV unit painted white.

As I said, the Trace/Xantrex inverter have 60 volt potential between N-G. It's a ghost voltage and isn't backed by any real current, but it will play havoc.

Open her up and confirm the n-n's aren't tied together internally, also with shore disconnected, and gen circuit open make sure the inverter is G-N switching.

Lloyd
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Old 20-07-2012, 11:40   #11
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Re: Splendide washer on inverter - what works?

I suspect its invertor noise coupling across and crashing the cpu on the washing machine controller. ( crappy things anyway). More playing about with ferrites I suspect, also make sure the washing machine and invertor arnt near each other,

Dave
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Old 20-07-2012, 11:56   #12
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Re: Splendide washer on inverter - what works?

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Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
Foggy,

Is your inverter a marine inverter, a RV inverter, a Mobile Inverter, or a land inverter?

Does it have an internal ground switching relay?

Trace/Xantrex Mobile/RV and land inverters don't have GSR, they also have the neutral for output and input tied together with a bus jumper.

I have even seen their Marine Units lacking the GSR, and the neutrals tied together, which tells me it was an RV unit painted white.

As I said, the Trace/Xantrex inverter have 60 volt potential between N-G. It's a ghost voltage and isn't backed by any real current, but it will play havoc.

Open her up and confirm the n-n's aren't tied together internally, also with shore disconnected, and gen circuit open make sure the inverter is G-N switching.

Lloyd
I'm not sure if you are asking me or not......

The Inverter/Charger in my case is a MasterVolt Combi. The input and output neutrals are isolated and only joined when AC is detected on the input side. Once detected, the unit cuts the AC through to the output side, and switching into charger mode.

It also includes a neutral ground relay with a DIP switch to enable/disable it. When the inverter is operating and only the output AC is active, the output neutral and ground are switched together.

I think this is all proper operation, and I agree that many inverters, especially older ones, do not do it all correctly and can result in multiple neutral/Ground connection points depending on how the installation is wired.
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Old 20-07-2012, 12:09   #13
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Re: Splendide washer on inverter - what works?

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I suspect its invertor noise coupling across and crashing the cpu on the washing machine controller. ( crappy things anyway). More playing about with ferrites I suspect, also make sure the washing machine and invertor arnt near each other,

Dave
I did just realize that even though the washer and inverter are in different "rooms", they are only separated by a foot or two with an intervening fiberglass bulkhead, plywood panel, and sound insulation. But separating them further even just as an experiment would be quite difficult, and permanent rearrangement would be major work. I'd buy a different inverter first.

It's not crashing the washer CPU, but causing it to misread some of its sensors. It thinks the tub is full of water and keeps trying to empty it, then eventually errors out and says the tub is reading both full and empty at the same time.
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Old 20-07-2012, 12:11   #14
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Re: Splendide washer on inverter - what works?

Quote:
I did just realize that even though the washer and inverter are in different "rooms", they are only separated by a foot or two with an intervening fiberglass bulkhead, plywood panel, and sound insulation. But separating them further even just as an experiment would be quite difficult, and permanent rearrangement would be major work. I'd buy a different inverter first.
little alarms bells should be going off in your head . beep beep beep......

it why the ferrites arent working , air coupled rf interference.
Dave
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Old 20-07-2012, 12:25   #15
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Re: Splendide washer on inverter - what works?

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I'm not sure if you are asking me or not......

The Inverter/Charger in my case is a MasterVolt Combi. The input and output neutrals are isolated and only joined when AC is detected on the input side. Once detected, the unit cuts the AC through to the output side, and switching into charger mode.

It also includes a neutral ground relay with a DIP switch to enable/disable it. When the inverter is operating and only the output AC is active, the output neutral and ground are switched together.

I think this is all proper operation, and I agree that many inverters, especially older ones, do not do it all correctly and can result in multiple neutral/Ground connection points depending on how the installation is wired.
Twisted,

I was referring to jay re: his trace.

Has your inspection been visual only, or are you using a MM to confirm isolation where required.

The only way to make an accurate survey is with a MM. make sure the S-N and the I-N are isolated. Also make sure your I-GSR is operating proper with the MM. Now with the shore circuit open, the gen circuit open, and the inverter circuit open, put the MM between N-N's and N-G, they all should show isolation.

Lloyd
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