Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 12-10-2006, 06:26   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Galveston bay
Boat: S2 11.0A
Posts: 88
Solar panels interfering with VHF

Hi,
I recently installed 2 Kiocera 85W panels with a Blue Sky controller. Works great but it broadcasts static over VHF frequencies. Does anyone have an idea for a solution?
Thanks,
Dave
Panama Dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2006, 06:59   #2
Eternal Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,046
Images: 4
Dave:

VHF or HF? VHF/FM interference (on marine and amateur bands) would be most unusual, though if you're listening to aircraft on VHF/AM it could be a problem.

Some ferrite beads or clamps on the wires to/from the controller would probably trap any stray RF.

Bill
btrayfors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2006, 07:15   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Galveston bay
Boat: S2 11.0A
Posts: 88
Bill,
VHF. Static on the majority of channels including 16. I have added ferrites at the panels and controller (input and output) with no improvrment. I figured it's unusual, I'm lucky that way.

Dave
Panama Dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2006, 07:36   #4
Eternal Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,046
Images: 4
Dave,

Wow! That is REALLY unusual.

I'd verify that it is really the panels/controller causing the interference problem, check all your VHF power and antenna connections carefully to be sure everything is clean and tight.

Then, try contacting the controller manufacturer. I doubt if it's the panels; more likely to be the controller, and nothing should put out that much RF. If you don't get satisfaction from Blue Sky, guess you're left with getting another controller.

Good luck. And, please let us know what the outcome is.

Bill
btrayfors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2006, 08:49   #5
Eternal Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,046
Images: 4
Dave,

If it's any consolation, you're not the only "lucky that way" guy!

Last week, I had a Professional Mariner 50A marine charger in my basement take down the LAN in my house, and make my IBM monitor go crazy!

The good news is that it only does this when under a substantial load, not when it's only pumping out a few amps :-))

Bill
btrayfors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2006, 09:35   #6
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Seattle area (Bremerton)
Boat: C&C Landfall 39 center cockpit "Anahita"
Posts: 1,077
Images: 6
VHF RFI

Relatively simple buck converters, like the Blue Sky solar controller, generate significant RFI. Those designs which meet stricter criteria are generally implemented with more complex switch-mode converter designs which lend themselves to confined filtering to deliver high quality dc output. You may notice that the RFI is greater with different amounts of sun, and battery state of charge.

Like many triac-controlled chargers the Pro-Mariner will make more RFI when the triac control makes the shortest turn-on time, conrresponding to the least amount of current delivered to the battery at the highest line voltages. This is why the European standards have essentially eliminated that topology in battery chargers. No amount of economically viable filtering will fix the problem for production designs (I've been through that evaluation).
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2006, 09:57   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Galveston bay
Boat: S2 11.0A
Posts: 88
Rick,
Sounds like you know your stuff. Unfortunately you are talking "over my head". Can you put that in simpler terms? Are you sying the problem can't be fixed?
Thanks,
Dave
Panama Dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2006, 10:12   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Seattle area (Bremerton)
Boat: C&C Landfall 39 center cockpit "Anahita"
Posts: 1,077
Images: 6
Your problem will not be easily solved by a technically qualified engineer without a complete re-design. Your ability to solve it by adding ferrites, caps, etc is doomed to remain an exercise in frustration.
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2006, 10:44   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 5
Re: Solar panels interfering with VHF

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
SNIP This is why the European standards have essentially eliminated that topology in battery chargers. No amount of economically viable filtering will fix the problem for production designs (I've been through that evaluation).
How about some URLs of European standards designs as alternatives for those of us about to buy (or replace) panels and controllers?

Will we likely have the same sort of problems with Wind Generator, for example Airex, controllers? If so, how about some URLs of good alternatives for that as well.

John
adjuvantjfoster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2006, 11:09   #10
Registered User
 
windthief's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shelter Island A-1 Mooring
Boat: Islander Freeport 41 1976
Posts: 113
Images: 91
Send a message via Yahoo to windthief
On Windthief we have two kyocera panels on top of our dodger and in front of the VHF antenna, never had any problems. Our controller is a Sunsei 20000cc.
I would also suggest confirmation of the solar panel/controller causing the issue.
__________________
Brad D.
S.V. Big Tuna
WWW.svbigtuna.COM
windthief is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2006, 11:42   #11
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 15,136
Rick, if the controller is making RF emissions...doesn't it have to meet certain FCC criteria regardless of which market (home, commercial, etc.) it is sold for?

Which leaves open an avenue for the manufacturer to remedy this, at least if it was sold in the US? (Similar regs in other countries.)
hellosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2006, 12:01   #12
Eternal Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,046
Images: 4
Rick,

"Like many triac-controlled chargers the Pro-Mariner will make more RFI when the triac control makes the shortest turn-on time, conrresponding to the least amount of current delivered to the battery at the highest line voltages."

In my case, I verified that the ProMariner was causing the problem back through the AC line, not through RF wireless emissions. I rebooted the network, connected the AC cord from the ProMariner charger to another AC line (not the same one which was powering the hub, cable modem, firewall, router, etc.) and....voila! No further interference problem.

Also, the problem was caused at the HIGHEST amperage output level by the ProMariner, not the lowest. Later on, after the battery banks reached a medium charge level, I reconnected the ProMariner to the same AC line where it had earlier caused the problem and.....no further problem.

Bill
btrayfors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2006, 19:00   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Seattle area (Bremerton)
Boat: C&C Landfall 39 center cockpit "Anahita"
Posts: 1,077
Images: 6
RFI problems, US and Euro standards (quickly)

Bill, (et al)
As you may know, RFI is specified as either conducted (over wires, etc.) or radiated (via electromagnetic waves). Either way, you suffered an RFI problem albeit slightly different than the norm associated with line/load variations (mentioned earlier) as I have witnessed over the years with various products having the design aspects of the products like that which you have.

I must point out that Bill's product problem has an inherent design difficulty very difficult to overcome vastly different from the design difficulty difficult to overcome inherent in the very different topology of the solor regulator. Both generate RFI yet both have very different sources of radiation.

Regardless, do not assume that ANY product sold in the US adheres to ANY standards regarding emission or conduction of RFI. Somewhat sadly it is incumbent upon the purchaser to verify the claimed adherence to various standards, including the "minimum" of U/L safety ones (which do nothing to force manufacturers to minimize RF radiation).

For at least thirty years there has been an FCC class "B" standard which, in some industrial US applications must be adhered to, YET does not quite qualify to pass the somewhat equivalent "CE" standards which MUST be adhered to in order to be legally accepted into the European markets. In general the "CE" standards are more stringent. Yes, there are various CE standards and one must be astude as to which one(s) affect/effect products and applications.

Mastervolt is one European manufacturer attempting to make marketing inroads into this country with relatively good product quality that meets such standards. One obvious "problem" is that such products require more engineering and production costs than those not so "quiet" in both the "RF" world as well as presenting the power grid with a unit representing a resistive load (technically referred to as a load not generating unacceptable harmonic components to the generator). There are others, like Xantrex (in some specific cases). So far, I know of no products affordable as consumer solar regualators which provide necessary peak power point tracking. Perhaps others will point out a viable source for this application area.

There is a cost, of course. Instead of paying around 8 dollars per 10 Amps of charging current one will pay around 20 dollars per 10 Amps for a CE rated charger. But, guess what? You probably will not have an RFI problem, although not necessarily so, especially in the case of HF receivers which are particularly sensitive to a "noise floor" caused by ANY existence of switching noise in an immediate area.

The good news is that although for several years various circuit topologies have been identified as being ones which lend themselves to relatively "low" generation of RFI it has only been in the last 5 years or so that the cost of implementing those topologies has come down, largely due to the lower cost of solid-state switching, inductor, and offshore manufacturing (like it or not). In addition, there has been what I call a "fall-out" of designs from industry which make their way into the marine market to give us a benefit in this regard. I have observed for decades that the marine electronics products lags the state of the art industry products by 12 to 20 years. That lag is diminishing for several reasons. One of the main reasons has historically been that the marine market is relatively miniscule compared to the world industrial market for manufacturers, including their ability to attract and retain really good engineers. Maybe I'm getting too far off the original topic, I apologise.
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-10-2006, 06:00   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Galveston bay
Boat: S2 11.0A
Posts: 88
All,
Blue sky is being very helpfull trying to resolve this isse. They sent me another controller (at no charge) which has been modified to be quieter. I'll let you know if it works once I put it on the boat.
Dave
Panama Dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-10-2006, 16:12   #15
Registered User
 
Jentine's Avatar

Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cruising on the hook
Boat: 34’ Marine Trader
Posts: 752
Images: 5
I have 420 watts of solar generation, all from Kyocera panels connected to a Xantrex/ Trace controller with no RF problems whatever. The simple solution is to replace the controller.
Jim
__________________
Jim

We are what we repeatedly do.
Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit."
--Aristotle
Jentine is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Only Solar Skylark Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 116 29-07-2008 11:52
Wiring of Wind Generator and Solar Panels Da BigBamboo Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 38 15-10-2007 12:21
VHF RADIO RANGE GordMay Marine Electronics 16 24-02-2007 09:33
AIS Update Curtis Marine Electronics 49 12-10-2006 16:26
Solar expense AdamY Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 29 25-06-2006 13:42

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:45.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.