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Old 09-09-2016, 19:58   #31
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Re: So you think yours batteries are charged?

putting a diode in line with voltage sense wire will give .6 volt drop so alternator will up output voltage
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Old 16-09-2016, 14:14   #32
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Re: So you think yours batteries are charged?

For those planning their battery bank. Fit as many amp/hour as you can in physical space. You can never have too much battery, except when checking water. You will find just the minimum size will eventually be not enough. As for the argument about charging a large bank, we only have to return what was used, and a large bank will benefit from Peukert's law.
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Old 16-09-2016, 15:30   #33
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Re: So you think yours batteries are charged?

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Originally Posted by Zil View Post
For those planning their battery bank. Fit as many amp/hour as you can in physical space. You can never have too much battery, except when checking water. You will find just the minimum size will eventually be not enough. As for the argument about charging a large bank, we only have to return what was used, and a large bank will benefit from Peukert's law.
Could I politely ask you to read the following post and learn how to use the correct units before offering advice on electrical matters?

Amps v Amp hours v Amps/Hr
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Old 16-09-2016, 15:41   #34
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Re: So you think yours batteries are charged?

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Could I politely ask you to read the following post and learn how to use the correct units before offering advice on electrical matters?

Amps v Amp hours v Amps/Hr
Stu, you remind me (fondly) of an old physics prof who used to publicly chastise students who would turn in work without units. He would bellow so all could hear:

"Ten WHAT? Ten km? Ten kilopascal?? Ten Dead Dogs In a Gutter??!!?? FAIL!!"
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Old 16-09-2016, 17:57   #35

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Re: So you think yours batteries are charged?

"So I emailed the charger co (magnum ms2800) and they told me yes! To fool the charger so it goes into absorption," Congratulations, contrary to the choir of experts you appear to be the first and only person on this planet who has found that multiple charging sources using different algorithms will in fact conflict with each other. And as DpFrz (more diplomatically) put it, wtf are you charging at 13.7 volts, which would be considered below the minimum in the standard 14.4 volt automotive systems? Which are actually designed to "not overcharge" a battery during long runs, they are not set they high with the intent of fast or full charging. I'd be leary of putting a diode in any lone to trick voltage sensing. Yes, it works, but diode voltage drop can change from 0.3 to 0.7 depending on the amperage being pulled across that diode, as well as the specific diode TYPE. It's a kludge, a way to get home, but not a good long-term solution. I like to follow Ceasar's teachings: Divide and Conquer. Disconnect all charging sources except ONE. Use that one and monitor the results for a day or two. Set the charging voltages/regime to whatever optimums the battery maker has recommended--because those also vary. And to be charged accurately, you need a temperature sensor on the battery post, unless you are manually fiddling the charger output. Check each charger source this way, as best you can, with a "known good" multimeter, since there are very few (except the pricey Flukes) that read right out of the box. Also check for parasitic drains, unintentional voltage loops, bad cable lugs, etc. just to make Real Damn Sure. And once you know that every piece of the system works correctly BY ITSELF, then you start to combine them and see if there are just some kids who won't play nicely together. And you can focus with certainty on them.
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Old 16-09-2016, 18:42   #36
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Re: So you think yours batteries are charged?

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Originally Posted by TheThunderbird View Post
Please, MULTIPLY Amperage by Time

Ah is correct
A/hrs means nothing

12,7V is dangerously too low for any big appliance!!!! As V goes down, the A drain increases and electric engines can toast....
Please don't call them electric engines, they are electric MOTORS. Engines use heat energy to create motion, motors use any form of energy to create motion. Engines are a subset of motors, and electric isn't part of that subset.
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Old 16-09-2016, 18:57   #37
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Re: So you think yours batteries are charged?

Or maybe motors are a subset of engines

How about this definition:
In a strictly physics sense an engine converts energy into mechanical work.
A motor is a subset of engines that produce motion as the mechanical work.
So all motors are engines but not all engines are motors.

or this:
Difference Between Engine and Motor | Difference Between

And to really know the "Difference", how about these engines.

The Engines | Babbage Engine | Computer History Museum
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Old 17-09-2016, 08:50   #38
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Re: So you think yours batteries are charged?

I agree if it burns fuel, it's an engine. If it's electric, it a motor.
But why do they call Detroit Motor City?


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Old 17-09-2016, 16:27   #39
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Re: So you think yours batteries are charged?

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I agree if it burns fuel, it's an engine. If it's electric, it a motor.
But why do they call Detroit Motor City?


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Because they make motorcars (or motor vehicles if you will) there?

Because the Ford Motor Company is there?
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Old 17-09-2016, 17:27   #40
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Re: So you think yours batteries are charged?

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"So I emailed the charger co (magnum ms2800) and they told me yes! To fool the charger so it goes into absorption,"


Don't you love a charging source so smart, it has to be fooled?

Perhaps if it were indeed smart, it could sense the high amperage it required to maintain float voltage when first turned on, See that the battery was discharged, and then decide to aim for 14.4v+. I guess loads on DC system could be interpreted as a depleted battery though.

I have a series of smart chargers from yesteryear that all need to be tricked into seeking absorption voltage whenever any charging source, or undissipated surface charge has voltage above 12.6v.

They also of course do not hold Absorption voltage long enough and need to be restarted. But of course one needs to load the battery until voltage falls below 12.6v or so and only then try and restart the whizz bang super smart charger.

lather rinse repeat until the battery is indeed full indicated by a hydrometer or amps required to maintain absorption voltage for an AGM.
This takes many 'repeats' if it can accomplish the task at all.

I now Use an Adjustable voltage power supply instead. Meanwell rsp-500-15 modified with a Bourns 1K ohm 10 turn potentiometer and extra heatsinking and fans. 40 amps available at any voltage I choose between 13.12 and 19.23 for ~140$. Not a marine application though.

And Not automatic, at least without the spring wound timer I once planned on. But not confused by other charging sources either.

Give me the ability to choose Absorption voltage, or give me a sledge hammer. I release flatulence in the direction of 'smart', well marketed, automatic underchargers.
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Old 18-09-2016, 11:11   #41
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Re: So you think yours batteries are charged?

Both my Magnum and Sterling chargers see the bank voltage when turned on and use that to interpret SOC, and both always start out in bulk, bulk and absorption are actually the same, bulk is absorption but the charger is power limited to a voltage less than absorption is all. They are really only two stage chargers.
My Magnum I have set so that it looks for a set amperage charge rate to trip to float, but you can set it to be a time too. The Sterling has some sort of algorithm that determines when it goes to float, it usually goes into float at about 95% SOC, but turning it off and back on resets it and it will then not go into float until 100% SOC.

Good chargers require very little babysitting.


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Old 19-09-2016, 09:52   #42
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Re: So you think yours batteries are charged?

Stu. / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /
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Old 19-09-2016, 11:13   #43
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Re: So you think yours batteries are charged?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Or maybe motors are a subset of engines

How about this definition:
In a strictly physics sense an engine converts energy into mechanical work.
A motor is a subset of engines that produce motion as the mechanical work.
So all motors are engines but not all engines are motors.

I noticed that you pulled this definition off of a site meaning - Semantic difference between "engine" and "motor" - English Language & Usage Stack Exchange that offers opposing definitions, the first of which cited a Princeton website which agreed with my understanding. The second, which you reproduced has no citation and appears to be somebody's personal opinion.

In thermodynamics specifically and engineering in general an engine converts heat energy into motion or kinetic energy. Motors are the general term for machines that convert any type of potential energy into motion or kinetic energy. In addition to heat this would include sources such as wound springs, pressurized hydraulic fluids, electricity in a wire, raised weights allowed to drop in a controlled manner (think grandfather clocks).



or this:
Difference Between Engine and Motor | Difference Between
This site seems to be the stand alone opinion of one writer with no citations to outside authorities or reference to general usage and isn't even internally consistent as the summary at the end conflicts with the body of the text.


And to really know the "Difference", how about these engines.

The Engines | Babbage Engine | Computer History Museum
I'm going to take a pass on arguing about archaic usage (ie. pre-1900 such as Babbages difference engine or other early machines for ruling diffraction gratings or sextant arcs) or non-engineering references such as various software "engines" that support games and graphics, or references to the economy such as the "economic engine" of the US.

I am strictly discussing the definition of items that in engineering the create motion from other forms of energy.
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Old 19-09-2016, 14:48   #44
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Re: So you think yours batteries are charged?

Quote:
putting a diode in line with voltage sense wire will give .6 volt drop so alternator will up output voltage
OK, can I do this with my Hitachi / Yanmar alternators? Looks like I need to get one rebuilt anyway. I do not need a big expensive Balmar and all the extra expenses hooking one up. My 530 watts of solar should be taking care of me but would be nice to have the stock alternator doing it's share.
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Old 19-09-2016, 15:16   #45
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Re: So you think yours batteries are charged?

The last guy I saw playing the diode trick boiled off his batteries and about caught his boat on fire as he was motoring for 2 days across the Sea of Cortez and forgot to turn off his alternator. To me adding in a diode to fool your alternator is one of those "tricks" that sounds good in a chat room but can be a disaster just waiting to happen when you put it in practice on a full time cruising boat. Lets not even talk about the alternator overheating from being tricked into the high output for longer duration than it was designed for...that's unintended consequence No2...

I'm just telling you right now, all the going cheap on your charging system is going to get you is dead batteries and heartache at the end of the day. It's not that I'm any smarter...I've just played the game for the last 8yrs of living-aboard on the hook. A good high output alternator with a smart regulator to me is as important on a cruising boat as a compass. Maybe even more so because everyone is using their I-this and I-that for navigation these days...but without healthy batteries your done, your daily life becomes miserable as you struggle to keep from seeing 12.1v in the mornings...been there...done that...got the T-shirt and learned my lesson from the school of hard knocks.

If you don't have an Amp/hr meter on your boat...get one. Just don't put it where you can see it from your bed or you will keep yourself up at night staring at it...more been there/done that advice...
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