Smart regulator interfering with Volvo Penta motormanagement?

[CarinaPDX]

I would greatly appreciate a wiring diagram as it is now. Basically just take the previous photo and indicate the wires that attach to each terminal, and also indicate the precise changes to the alternator. I have a D2-40 and have had fun trying to sort some of this out.

What I have learned: The Mitsubishi 115A alternator is an N-type; the standard in the US is P-type. The American external multi-step regulators are P-type exclusively so won't work on the unmodified N-type alternator. There are European performance regulators like the Mastervolt that will control the (European standard) N-type alternator.

Simply put, the N-type alternator connects one side of the field directly to +12VDC, and then regulates the other side of the field to ground (0VDC). The external yellow wire on the Volvo alternator is an external voltage sense (it connects to the 1/4" spade terminal). It looks like the folks that modified the alternator took one side of the field and ran it out the D terminal which is normally used for the brown wire (charge indicator/tach out), and ran the other side out through some convenient hole. If so, and the connection to +12VDC was cut, the alternator is neither N- nor P-type, but can be driven either way by an external regulator. But then what happened to the D terminal, which is likely what the engine controller is using to monitor the engine?

Thanks for your help.

Greg

[Edwin Curacao]

Like said by The old internal regulator was managing the - side of the field and the + side of the field is directly delivered from AC side of alternator through the "Diode Trio".

I've removed the 3 Diodes in the alternator to disconnect this to be able to connect Balmars regulator. It regulates the + side of the field....

I only chose for balmar because of extra options as temperature reading of the alternator. Wast aware that is only for P type field regulating.

The mastervolt alpha regulator seems to regulates the negative of the field and is more suitable!!!!
You dont need to remove diode trio and only remove regulator and solder wire to negative brush holder to go to mastervolt regulator.

Because of regulating the alternator as P type the engine control wires give troubles because of no D+ feed anymore. I'll try to find a solution for this.

[Edwin Curacao]

The Balmar regulator has a dash light out but somehow it wont give 12v+ out. I need to check if the regulator is getting stator feedback

If i hold the brown wire to a 12v source the battery alarm on dash goes off!!!
So it should work if I can get this balmar regulator to give 12v to the dash light output as it should do according to the manual.

volvo penta d2-55.jpg Views: 34987 Size: 304.3 KB ID: 65870" style="margin: 2px" />

[colemj]

Have you looked into Sterling's external regulator? It works for both p and n types - you simply solder a wire to the correct brush for the alternator type. The internal regulator and wiring is left active in place and provides tach, charge indicator, etc. If the Sterling fails or is disconnected, the alternator seamlessly reverts to its internal regulation.

We have one running a stock n-type alternator from an older Volvo series (MD2030). The alternator modification is easy - determine the n-side brush and connect a wire to it and lead it out of the case.

This may be a solution for the new Volvo series engines.

Mark

[Edwin Curacao]

I will look into this, but if the internal dumb regulator always hold it on 14.4v and the external whants to go into float charge (13.4-13.8v) and tries to lower the field, but the internal regulator holds the field high to hold it at 14.4v.

This how modified now

[Edwin Curacao]

Stator measures good going into regulator, only dash source on the Balmar regulator gives noting out.... I've contacted Balmar for this issue.

The alarm problem is only the brown dash lamp wire which need 12v positive signal to turn of alarm. (Normally connected to D+ which is now only field feed from regulator)

[CarinaPDX]

You are right about Sterling: it adds current to the field to increase output, but has no way of reducing the current from the internal regulator. The result is a constant 14.4V. IIRC the Sterling units can be installed like the Mastervolt, by removing the internal regulator, and then should function appropriately (both can handle N-type alternators).

I am finding it a bit difficult to follow exactly the wiring situation - a diagram would help. (A picture is worth a thousand words.) I don't understand why you used the D terminal for the field connection: why not maintain that as it was? I suspect that the engine controller wants to see that unrectified signal; it is not the same as just 12VDC out when the alternator is running. With old-school wiring the D+ connection outputs roughly 12VDC when the alternator runs, which is connected to a lamp bulb and 12VDC on the other side (i.e. the voltages match and the lamp doesn't come on). With the alternator stopped D+ goes to ground and the light comes on (not possible with a rectified signal). Also, since D+ is just one stator winding the output can be used to determine the speed of the alternator, and hence the engine. I don't know which aspects of D+ are used by the Volvo controller, but it is unlikely that it can be replicated with a simple 12VDC signal.

Greg

[zeevantijd]

Originally Posted by Edwin Curacao

To where did you connect the battery light wire (brown) and the "exiting" wire (Blue/red) the triggers my battery alarm on dash I think.
I'm installing the balmar regulator, have it running but as soon as turning on regulator and start charging the alarm starts. if regulator off no alarm....
Now connected Blue/red wire unconnected and dash light to balmar regulator dash out

I'm quite far from my boat now, so I cannot check this exactly for you. Last month, on board, I made this sketch. "M.V.Alfa" stands for Mastervolt alfa pro regulator, which has 4 connecting wires. The wire colors of my D2-75F seem to be slightly different from yours.

The brown Volvo wire that used to be connected to the alternator is now connected to nothing. A thin yellow Volvo wire is still connected to the "slit-plug" of the alternator. A thin black Volvo wire is connected to the B-minus connector. The field of the alternator has been made accessible in my case and has now a + and - connection (blue and red) to the external regulator.

[CarinaPDX]

I am having a problem getting the photo, but should get it tonight with a better internet connection.

The small yellow wire with the 1/4" flat connector is the voltage sense for the internal regulator. It is connected to the battery + terminal on the starter solenoid from the factory, and is meant to be changed to connect to the battery on the other side of an isolator diode if used. As it is, with the internal regulator removed, it is doing nothing and can be removed. (Or at least that is true unless the alternator modification is using it in some strange way.)

The brown wire is the lamp/tach connection as I described above, and is connected to the engine controller (black box) from the factory. I am surprised that no alarms are going off with this disconnected: this is the input that tells the controller the alternator (and by extension the engine) is turning, and at what speed. Also, in the past most alternators had 3 stators (windings) but today there can be many more; if the controller is using this signal for speed input then any replacement alternator should have the same number of windings. (I have read this, but am a little unclear as to why it is so as any single stator should have a max output just once in a revolution.)

I am pretty certain that the thin black wire goes to the controller and is the source of ground for it. I don't have any more time to look at this now but can check it next week if it is an issue.

Greg

[Edwin Curacao]

I have a problem with the dash signal from my new Balmar regulator.

Thanks both for responses,
@ Greg,: you are completely right, only this D+ was between regulator + and diode trio. (diode trio takes all 3 stator windings and rectifies them for using to feed the 12v + field winding.
the single stator winding is the "W" connection

In case of Balmar regulator it wants to control this 12v+ field. In cace of Mastervolt regulator the controlled field is the Negative side.
In case of using Mastervolts regulator the diode trio can be left in place and the D+ connection for dash light will funcion the same.

Like said before I should have go for the Mastervolt regulator but the alternator option let me chose for the Balmar regulator......

Here the alternator diagram with description
penta d2-55.jpg Views: 5558 Size: 83.6 KB ID: 65881" style="margin: 2px" />

[CarinaPDX]

I should add that there is another dimension to this problem: Volvo has gone through 3 different designs for the controller. I still have the original but others may have newer versions. The different variants may handle the brown lamp/tach input differently, so all engines may not behave the same. Caveat emptor...

Greg

[CarinaPDX]

Edwin- I would need more time to study this but I have no more now. I need to get on the road and won't return to the boat until next week. I might get some time this weekend but without access to the engine I am a bit limited.

BTW how many diodes did you find in the alternator?

On the road...

Greg

[Edwin Curacao]

Our engine is D2-55C from 2005 with saildrive 130S.

the workshop manual from 2006 for the d2-55 /D2-75 only have one wiring diagram for all engines.

If the brown wire receives 12v constant alarm will go off.

The balmar regulator should give the 12v+ out at dash source but is not giving in my case....

the balmar is far more modification than the mastervolt regulator in case of an N type regulator with diode trio.

here the pdf workshop manual I've found on the net
7742969w D2-55, D2-75 Workshop Manual

[Edwin Curacao]

Managed to make it all working.

Balmar regulator dash source connection gives only ground if -no stator -over temp. NOT if the regulator is off due to blown fuse or other power failure....... so how to tell if regulator is really on... no alarm?

I connected the dash light wire (brown) from engine harness to the B+ connection on alternator. Because of using diode block to split 2 battery banks the B+ will only be giving 12v if alternator is generating.
As soon regulator shuts down or alternator not generating power alarm switch on almost immediately.

[zeevantijd]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

I am finding it a bit difficult to follow exactly the wiring situation - a diagram would help. (A picture is worth a thousand words.)

Hi Greg and Edwin,
Today the specialist alternator company that modified my alternator replied my request for information:
1) They emptied the housing of the internal regulator completely and checked afterwards whether it's connections to the 3 diodes on one side and the brush holders on the other side no longer existed.
2) They left the 3 diodes untampered in place.
3) One field wire was connected to a brush holder to be accessible for the Mastervolt regulator.
4) The other field wire was connected to the D+ terminal to be accessible for the Mastervolt regulator, since this is easier than connecting both to a separate brush holder.

The brown Volvo harnass wire (lamp/tach connection) is no longer connected to anything. Nevertheless we are nog bothered by alarms. How this is possible, I do not understand. Anybody?