Smart regulator interfering with Volvo Penta motormanagement?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by zeevantijd

Hi Greg and Edwin,
Today the specialist alternator company that modified my alternator replied my request for information:
1) They emptied the housing of the internal regulator completely and checked afterwards whether it's connections to the 3 diodes on one side and the brush holders on the other side no longer existed.
2) They left the 3 diodes untampered in place.
3) One field wire was connected to a brush holder to be accessible for the Mastervolt regulator.
4) The other field wire was connected to the D+ terminal to be accessible for the Mastervolt regulator, since this is easier than connecting both to a separate brush holder.

The brown Volvo harnass wire (lamp/tach connection) is no longer connected to anything. Nevertheless we are nog bothered by alarms. How this is possible, I do not understand. Anybody?

Probably cause the software doesn't detect any alt

Dave

[CarinaPDX]

Dave- Makes sense. Without the unrectified "lamp" or "tach" output there is no way of knowing that the alternator is turning.

The connections from the field to the external regulator are straightforward. It shouldn't be necessary to take both sides out, as one side can be attached internally to battery+ (N-type) or ground (P-type). If the unattached end is run out the spade terminal (the connection currently used for remote voltage sense) then the D+ could be left unmodified and the engine controller should be happy. Has anyone tried this?

Greg

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by Edwin Curacao

If the brown wire receives 12v constant alarm will go off.

Unfortunately the English language has some strange usages which make things ambiguous. If I were to say that the "alarm will go off" I usually mean that it will operate (i.e. sound and lamp on) and not that the alarm will turn off (i.e. the sound and lamp off). Which did you intend?

I understand that folks selling aftermarket alternators (Balmar et al) may have issues matching the D+ signal from the Mitsubishi alternator, and solving that problem is important to them for selling those alternators. But I don't think we should have a problem replacing the internal regulator as long as the D+ signal is not removed. This assumes that it is a standard D+ signal and not some signal line from the regulator to the engine controller, in which case it might make sense to leave the regulator in place but disconnect it from the field circuit. I doubt this is the case however.

Greg

[Edwin Curacao]

Mastervolt regulator regulates the negative brush
Balmar regulates the positive (why in my case I needed to remove the diode trio to stop feeding the + direct from stator.

With mastervolt regulator the diode trio can leave intact beacause of the field will use this as positive, D+ is connection point between diode trio and field brush. this will give volt when alternator generating power. I meant with 12v on brown wire NO SOUND AND LIGHT as soon as disconnected the alarm sounds.

Weird that you don't have an alarm with the brown wire not connected.

With mastervolt regulator the

[Edwin Curacao]

zeevantijd, what year is your engine?

[CarinaPDX]

Edwin- Thanks for the info. Clearly it is easier to use a regulator intended for N-type alternators, but it seems you have a good P-type conversion. I take it that there was no easy way to disconnect the field wire and leave the diodes inside - too bad. It is good to know that you have been able to disable the dash alarms, although that also means they won't tell you that the alternator isn't charging if there is a problem.

So far it looks like I will have to chase down a European N-type regulator (MasterVolt maybe) and hook it up as I described earlier. It sounds like the D+ should work properly, and hence the controller and alarms.

BTW I have a D2-40, I think 2010.

Thanks for the info.

Greg

[zeevantijd]

Originally Posted by Edwin Curacao

zeevantijd, what year is your engine?

It is a 2012 D2-75F

[siboneysail]

Being the proud owner of a brand new D2-40F I have found this thread to be greatly informative. I have this to add to it:
First, the internal regulator regulates the output at 14.4V and it appears to be a bit too high. When reading Lindens battety handbook, it states that wet cells will handle this voltage with no problem. They will probably generate a small amount of Hydrogen and Oxygen, but in a well ventilated compartment this is not an issue. The only draw back is that the water level in the battery should be monitored and replenished( after the battery is fully charged ) regularly. In an AGM battery, outgassing is not a problem because the generated gases are immidiately re absorbed and will not casue a problem. Since I have no interesst in GEL-Cells, I did not bother to investigate side effects. I agree with the statement that battery types are best not mixed.
Second issue to be resolved in changing out the regulator is the over temperature protection of the alternator. The internal regulator is most likely to be equipped with over temperature protection so that if the case temperature of the alternator goes above a set point it will back off on the charging current output. Although this alternator is rated for 115Amps to run it at max power for an extended period (large battery bank) will cause it to overheat. Defeating the over temperature protection with an external regulator might very well shorten the life of the alternator. The Mastervolt regulators I have found online do not have alternator temperature sensing. The Sterling and Balmar regulators do include this feature. Sterling is advertising a new regulator that does not need to be paralled with the existing regulator, but I do not see it on their US website.
Thanks to all for the information provided. Until the warranty is up on my engine I will stick to the factory configuration. I have ordered the optional Voltmeter for the instrument panel so I have all the information I need if I ever decide to go the external regulator route.

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by siboneysail

The Mastervolt regulators I have found online do not have alternator temperature sensing. The Sterling and Balmar regulators do include this feature. Sterling is advertising a new regulator that does not need to be paralled with the existing regulator, but I do not see it on their US website.
Thanks to all for the information provided. Until the warranty is up on my engine I will stick to the factory configuration. I have ordered the optional Voltmeter for the instrument panel so I have all the information I need if I ever decide to go the external regulator route.

I was recently aboard a brand new seven figure + sailboat with a full Mastervolt system. In its first few weeks it already had one alternator FIRE... There was no alt temp compensation!! Temp compensation is not an option especially if using light duty automotive based alternators and you have a large bank.

Balmar currently offers some of the best regulators for use with a factory converted alternator. You have multiple ways to limit the alt so as not to fry it. You have both current limiting and temp limiting.

Balmar's also do adaptive temp compensation finding the "sweet spot" for the alt to run at. The Sterling is a 50% cut, cool down, 100%, too hot, 50% cut, cool down, 100%, too hot, 50% cut, on and on and on.....

[lmantuano]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

....The Sterling is a 50% cut, cool down, 100%, too hot, 50% cut, cool down, 100%, too hot, 50% cut, on and on and on.....

G'day Maine!

this above is the answer to the question I was going to ask Charles Sterling i.e. "how does the Sterling RegPro REALLY behaves on detecting an alternator overtemp".. but, because I did a bit of reverse engineering on the device and saw that the field wire (white) comes from the (larger) relay contact, on the RegPro circuit board, I now wonder whether actually the field current is totally removed at 90 DegC and restored at 65 DegC as explained in the RegPro wonderful install manual... Also, either way, if the internal regulator (of any non-specific alternator) is still in the loop, wouldn't IT take over and still regulate to possibly around 14v-ish and continue to keep the alt nice and warm?

Yes, I do understand that the internal reg can be "bypassed/disconnected" but this would defeat the desirable feature of having the internal reg acting as an "online/standby" backup, as advertised by Sterling..

One more request if I may, do you or anybody else have and are willing to share any intimate tech info on the RegPro workings? I'm asking because I'm working with a friend on his yacht to find a solution, possibly E-Maax + Sterling, to solve his alternator-eating Vetus M3.28 motor (three 75A OEM alternators in 150 hrs, so far) issues.

thanx

lm

[siboneysail]

The internal regulator has (or should have) built in over temperature protection. The problem with leaving the internal regulator connected in parallel with the external one is that the charging voltage will never go down to float ( 13.4V ). This is not optimum if motoring for a long period. If I were to use an external regulator, I would connect a switch to allow me to connect to the internal regulator in case of an external regulator failure, This switch of course must not be thrown while the engine is running.

As for the engine eating alternator, check the wiring to the batteries. If the cables are loose the intermittent connect and disconnect will blow the diodes.

[jflyver]

Hello,
Has anybody a solution to easy install a Mastervolt Alpha Pro on a Volvo Penta 115 A generator for better charge of the batteries.
Mayby some will share this here, thabks

[areddon]

This is a very old thread but it is very helpful for installing external regulator on a Mitsubishi (or probably any "N" type) alternator.

I just added a Mark Grasser SmartCharge external regulator to the stock alternator on my Volvo Penta D2-40. I switched the internal fuse to select "N" type rather than "P" type as shipped.

I was unclear about how to replicate the job done by the shop who assisted zeevantijd but it worked out fine so I thought I would add the details and I also have a few small additions to clarify the excellent information above.

The existing internal regulator (the integrated circuit under the small, square, aluminum heat sink) has connections that are cast into the brown plastic plate and which are inaccessible. "Disconnecting" the regulator and ensuring that it has no connections to other parts of the alternator (as done by zeevantijd's shop) is important. The only way I could figure out how to do it was by removing it entirely. You can physically pry the regulator straight up if you use a sharp knife as the lever and a small piece of wood as a fulcrum to spread the load and protect the plastic. Just put a wooden stick of appropriate thickness (roughly 1/4") over the plastic and pry against that. It takes a bit of force but the regulator pops right off. Be careful not to break the plastic ... this is needed to stay in place and support the brushes.

Prying off the regulator left a bed of black sealant that I also dug out but could have left. I found that two of the electrical connecting pins were still affixed to the bottom of the regulator (they broke away from their connection in the plate below) and the rest of the pins were still affixed to their connections within the plastic plate (having broken away from the regulator itself). Doesn't matter, they are not needed.

To attach an "N" capable external regulator, you just need to crimp a small ring terminal onto the positive feed wire from the external regulator and screw that ring to the negative brush using the existing torx hold-down screw. Both brushes (positive and negative) are the under plastic cover on the outside of the case. The negative brush is the further aft of the two. You can identify which of the two is the negative brush (to which you want to add the wire) using zeevantijd's picture if you compare it carefully to your own alternator. You can also identify which brush is negative using an ohmmeter which should show open circuit from the negative brush to the D+ terminal while the alternator is disassembled and the rotor is not present. (D is labelled on case and it is the terminal that had the red/blue and brown wires to the engine). Finally, you can also identify the negative brush by elimination because the positive brush should show almost zero resistance to the D+ terminal.

Once you pry out the regulator and screw on a new wire to the negative brush, that's it!! No other alterations and no other wiring is required for an "N" type external regulator..

The D+ terminal is still available to accept the red/blue exciter wire and the brown warning light wire which will operate just as before. No other wiring to the negative brush is required for the Grasser regulator (or, I suspect any N-type) and no wiring to the positive brush is needed. If there is another N-type regulator which needs a wire to the positive brush, this can go externally onto the D+ terminal which is already connected internally to that brush.

The external regulator will need to connect to the negative terminal of the alternator or to the frame of the alternator but, unlike an implication in posts above, there is no need to create internal wiring from the positive brush to D+, or to make any changes to D+ at all.

This is why the set up shown by zeevantijd should work with no alarms ... the D+ is the same output as it always was. The red/blue and the brown wires can be reattached onto D+ and the yellow wire with the spade terminal should not be attached to the alternator at all.

[CarinaPDX]

This is an old thread, although the technology does tend to develop slowly. There is a new smart regulator that is specifically designed for the V-P D-series Mitsubishi alternators which can be installed without modification to the alternator, and still reduce to an appropriate float voltage. It is early, and the regulator is currently out of stock, but new product will be available soon - I'm on the waiting list.

SeaLITHIUM VRC-100 Advanced Alternator Controller | | Nordkyn Design

Greg

[areddon]

Wish I had know of this product before modifying my alternator.

More interesting than the "plug and play" aspect is the assertion that it will terminate absorption based on current. If this device can sense ACTUAL current to battery, net of loads, and hold the alternator in absorption until 0.5% of capacity that is quite an important development in this price range. Not sure there is another regulator that makes decisions based on actual current into bank.