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Old 06-08-2018, 15:32   #46
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Re: Small Boat Electrical for Sail

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Originally Posted by rgleason View Post
Additionally when the more powerful and quicker eng-alternator is charging, the slower solar PV should be turned off, to allow the alt to work properly,for example.
Not necessary, but won't do harm.

Just the panels will suffice.
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Old 06-08-2018, 15:40   #47
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Re: Small Boat Electrical for Sail

Sure you don't have a drier spot?

The more expensive gear does not **have** to be right with the bank, if close by electrically won't increase wire gauge costs "much".

If not, may be worth using Pelican style waterproof boxes for some components with wiring "clams", usually leave the box lid down /open, part of your rough-prep checklist turn stuff off and close up the boxen.

Just spitballin', the idea of your whole electrickery infrastructure being at risk of getting pooped gives me the shudders.

I'd rather move the galley to the cockpit myself 8-)
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Old 06-08-2018, 17:38   #48
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Re: Small Boat Electrical for Sail

"Sure you don't have a drier spot?"
Well, it would mean messing up our cabin, moving the wiring buses etc to the other side (starboard) where it might be mounted on our cabin mahogany paneling, ruining the original cabin woodwork, and lenthening cables to the house battery going through the engine. It would meet resistance from my dear wife who is also committed to this boat.

The port and starboard seats are well built, with deep and ample gutters pitched down steeply 5"-6" to about 5" from the cockpit sole. I am going to add a gasket to the underside of the seat too.
The bulkhead between cabin and lockers is about 6" back from the forward edge of the seat lid.
I can add some more pics in addition to the ones at the beging of this thread if it would help. It is a small boat. Here are the pics. Thanks for your thoughts.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/....php?p=2672912
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Old 07-08-2018, 10:31   #49
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Re: Small Boat Electrical for Sail

Here are a couple of better photos of the locker gutters.
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Old 07-08-2018, 14:22   #50
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Re: Small Boat Electrical for Sail

What I would like to so is put the two positive buses and the neg bus and shunt, 24hr fused panel, solar controllers and acr combiner and wiring on the port locker main bulkhead, covered with 1/4" removeable plexiglass.

Then I would like to fit the charger into the starboard locker on the main bulkhead perhaps in a watertight case that is opened up when at the dock charging, with the starboard locker seat lifted up for ventilation.

Then I need to fit in a new modern 120vac panel and a few circuits to the charger and the two 120vdc plugs. This would probably best fit on the starboard side.
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Old 09-08-2018, 10:16   #51
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Re: Small Boat Electrical for Sail

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Originally Posted by rgleason View Post
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Then I would like to fit the charger into the starboard locker on the main bulkhead perhaps in a watertight case that is opened up when at the dock charging, with the starboard locker seat lifted up for ventilation.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I truly believe you will find that this idea gets "old" quite quickly.



1. Anything that should be as easy as turning ON a single switch should never require two steps. When you walk into a room, do you have to open another little door that hides the switch to turn the lights on?


2. What happens when it rains?
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Old 10-08-2018, 02:58   #52
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Re: Small Boat Electrical for Sail

Stu thanks for the forewarning. I am going to see if there is a nearby inside locker that we can use and if my wife will concur, but the nearest ones are about 7' away. We would have to open the door while charging. I don't think under the sink is a good idea and the immediate port side in the cabin has the refridge.

However even mounted in the starboard cockpit locker, this is going to be much easier than connecting my lousey failed guest portable charger. Our use of this is infrequent as we are on a mooring and generally anchor.
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Old 10-08-2018, 11:03   #53
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Alternator Replacement - 1st summer priority

Alternator Replacement (First priority for the rest of the summer.)

Make basic bulk charging more efficient, quicker, easier and cooler. New pulley ratio required with new alternator.

I've found my current 1993 Balmar 90-65 which was rebuilt in 2015 with non OEM stator now no longer outputs adequate amps at 800-1200 rpm. The ratio of the pulleys is 1.73 and it outputs 30amp at 1600rpm when in reverse on anchor. It is noisey, hot and inefficient. This ratio is inadequate and should be 2.0 or 2.2 I believe, but the alternator is also not adequate and outdated without replacement parts. I have checked alignment of the pulleys twice and tension of the V belt, there has always been dusting.

I am not happy with running the engine in reverse at mooring or anchor at 1600 rpm for 2.5 hours to charge the batteries at 30 amps. This heats up the engine more, and causes more work for the Ozifridge refrigeration and keeps the refridge box warmer (next to the engine). We draw down our evaporator whenever we run the engine, with the control set on high and fresh water pump running, thus reducing the use of the batteries for this purpose. Lower rpms will allow our small 3" bilge fan to keep up too.

Incidentally, in 2016 we installed an optional flywheel tach sensor, because the Balmar 90-65 stator had more coils and no setting in the Yanmar programming worked properly to set the tach accurately. The next year we were able to repitch the prop from accurate readings. Installing a larger alternator might cause us to have to re-pitch because the boat with a clean bottom will not power up to the manufacturer's 3600 rpm non-continuous rating, however we will not be using all 4.8 hp as the alt will be de-rated and it is 4.8hp - 3hp= 1.8hp difference.

Balmar 60-120-J10 Alternator, 12,000 rpm max (3200 x 2.18=6976 rpm), $751 Mainesail
2 to 2.18 is a factor of 1.09 so
the Balmar Power Curves (showing higher amp alternators have better output a low rpm) would be adjusted approximately as follows:

Engine Alternator Cold Hot
750rpm 1635rpm 22.9a 21.8a
1000rpm 2180rmp 87a 65a

Tom (Balmar Electrical) advises:
Agreed with the choice of 120 amps, if I in the future, we double the bank to 450amps or change to AGM. Until then he suggested using the Belt Manager set at "4" which will provide an identical same power curve, but limit high end output. He advised that de-rating the alternator will also result in cooler operation (which we need) and longevity.

We also discussed the roll of the belt cover, acknowledging the liabilities of removal of the cover, however he advised that this alternator draws air in from the front and back and blows the air out of the middle. Thus the cover will restrict air flow at the pulley side. He advised that some people drill holes in the cover, others remove the cover, which he was not suggesting due to liability issues. He advised that this alternator would be adequate for up to a 480 ah bank at 25% acceptance.

Balmar Serpentine
48-YSP-3YM-B Crank=5.24" Alt=2.4" H20=4.0" Ratio=2.18 (2)J10 belts 0.926" wide $464

Single V belt vs Dual V belt vs Serpentine J10
Tim (Balmar Mechanical) advised

Dual belt is more efficient and provides more torque than single V and somewhat less dusting. The dual V belts now are pretty close in terms of length (used to have to have them specially measured and paired) but in any case one belt usually takes more than 50% of the load.

The Serpentine is the best solution if a change in Engine to Alternator ratio is needed. Serpentine J10 belt is most efficient, with more torque and surface area due to .926 wide belt and 10 grooves with very little dusting. I asked about the difference of J10 versis the K type belts. Tim advised that the J10 is thinner and conforms to the 2.4" diameter serpentine pulley that is on the Water Pump much better.

He also advised that there are several installation videos on the Balmar website and MarineSail website. It should take about an hour to install the belts, provided the alternator is ordered with the J10 pulley installed. The crank pulley installs over the existing pulley with f-gel to isolate the aluminum and steel. Sometimes a washer or shim is needed for alignment but the Yanmar Engines are generally quite consistent. The water pump pulley just requires removal of 4 bolts, removal of the pulley and installation of the new serpentine pulley with 4 bolts.

He advised that fitting the heavy duty (and cut down and modified) Balmar tension bracket to give greater adjustment range, may require some heavy washers (1/4", 1/2", 1"), available on the website, due to the offset in the Yanmar tension bracket, and perhaps some other thin washers. Sometimes depending on the engine, the tension bracket will fit better with behind the alternator tab. He advised that alignment of this bracket is important as it may twist the entire alternator out of alignment.

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Old 10-08-2018, 15:25   #54
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Solar PV - 2nd Priority for this summer

Solar PV - Existing
1.Solar PV Powerfilm 14w tied to dodger
2. Genasun GV-10-Pb-12V, 10.5A MPPT controller 140w

Solar PV - Needed
Dodger Mount - (2) SP-50Q 21" x 24" or possibly SPx, tie then double velcro mount this winter.
What Controllers?

Just get another Genasun GV-10-Pb-12v?
Victron MPPT Control $92 ?

Solar PV (Future) - Aft Bimini location either side of backstay, (2) SP-135 & (2) Controllers?


Do I need a disconnect switch for between the controllers and the 24hr fused panel for safty when working on the system? Can't I just remove the fuses?
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Old 10-08-2018, 15:40   #55
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Charger Loads (future)

I had decided on a Stirling Pro Charge 12v-40amp
The boat lives on a mooring and anchors often. For reaching a full charge we will need to find shorepower on a regular basis to assure 100%SOC. Use of shore power needs to be reasonably short (3-4hours).

1. Generally we will have motored into the harbor for 30 minutes-1 hr, so much of bulk charging would be done.
2. When docked, house loads may be:
  1. Refridge Danfoss BD 7.2 amps
  2. Refridge fresh water cooling pump 4 amps
  3. Refridge loads could be lowered to about 5.2a but the refridge will not cool off as fast.
  4. Computer 7 amps
  5. Lights 1 amp
  6. Total 19.2 amps
3. Plus the charging amps needed for the batteries! Which depends on the state of charge. If still in bulk mode towards the end with 225ah batteries, we would need 15a-6a. If the battery bank is doubled, or changed to AGM, 30a would be needed.

4.So it is very possible that a 50a or 60a charger would be very useful, despite being used less than the other charging systems.
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Old 10-08-2018, 17:44   #56
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Re: Alternator Replacement - 1st summer priority

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgleason View Post
Alternator Replacement (First priority for the rest of the summer.)

Make basic bulk charging more efficient, quicker, easier and cooler. New pulley ratio required with new alternator.

I've found my current 1993 Balmar 90-65 which was rebuilt in 2015 with non OEM stator now no longer outputs adequate amps at 800-1200 rpm. The ratio of the pulleys is 1.73 and it outputs 30amp at 1600rpm when in reverse on anchor. It is noisey, hot and inefficient. This ratio is inadequate and should be 2.0 or 2.2 I believe, but the alternator is also not adequate and outdated without replacement parts. I have checked alignment of the pulleys twice and tension of the V belt, there has always been dusting.

I am not happy with running the engine in reverse at mooring or anchor at 1600 rpm for 2.5 hours to charge the batteries at 30 amps. This heats up the engine more, and causes more work for the Ozifridge refrigeration and keeps the refridge box warmer (next to the engine). We draw down our evaporator whenever we run the engine, with the control set on high and fresh water pump running, thus reducing the use of the batteries for this purpose. Lower rpms will allow our small 3" bilge fan to keep up too.

Incidentally, in 2016 we installed an optional flywheel tach sensor, because the Balmar 90-65 stator had more coils and no setting in the Yanmar programming worked properly to set the tach accurately. The next year we were able to repitch the prop from accurate readings. Installing a larger alternator might cause us to have to re-pitch because the boat with a clean bottom will not power up to the manufacturer's 3600 rpm non-continuous rating, however we will not be using all 4.8 hp as the alt will be de-rated and it is 4.8hp - 3hp= 1.8hp difference.

Balmar 60-120-J10 Alternator, 12,000 rpm max (3200 x 2.18=6976 rpm), $751 Mainesail
2 to 2.18 is a factor of 1.09 so
the Balmar Power Curves (showing higher amp alternators have better output a low rpm) would be adjusted approximately as follows:

Engine Alternator Cold Hot
750rpm 1635rpm 22.9a 21.8a
1000rpm 2180rmp 87a 65a

Tom (Balmar Electrical) advises:
Agreed with the choice of 120 amps, if I in the future, we double the bank to 450amps or change to AGM. Until then he suggested using the Belt Manager set at "4" which will provide an identical same power curve, but limit high end output. He advised that de-rating the alternator will also result in cooler operation (which we need) and longevity.

We also discussed the roll of the belt cover, acknowledging the liabilities of removal of the cover, however he advised that this alternator draws air in from the front and back and blows the air out of the middle. Thus the cover will restrict air flow at the pulley side. He advised that some people drill holes in the cover, others remove the cover, which he was not suggesting due to liability issues. He advised that this alternator would be adequate for up to a 480 ah bank at 25% acceptance.

Balmar Serpentine
48-YSP-3YM-B Crank=5.24" Alt=2.4" H20=4.0" Ratio=2.18 (2)J10 belts 0.926" wide $464

Single V belt vs Dual V belt vs Serpentine J10
Tim (Balmar Mechanical) advised

Dual belt is more efficient and provides more torque than single V and somewhat less dusting. The dual V belts now are pretty close in terms of length (used to have to have them specially measured and paired) but in any case one belt usually takes more than 50% of the load.

The Serpentine is the best solution if a change in Engine to Alternator ratio is needed. Serpentine J10 belt is most efficient, with more torque and surface area due to .926 wide belt and 10 grooves with very little dusting. I asked about the difference of J10 versis the K type belts. Tim advised that the J10 is thinner and conforms to the 2.4" diameter serpentine pulley that is on the Water Pump much better.

He also advised that there are several installation videos on the Balmar website and MarineSail website. It should take about an hour to install the belts, provided the alternator is ordered with the J10 pulley installed. The crank pulley installs over the existing pulley with f-gel to isolate the aluminum and steel. Sometimes a washer or shim is needed for alignment but the Yanmar Engines are generally quite consistent. The water pump pulley just requires removal of 4 bolts, removal of the pulley and installation of the new serpentine pulley with 4 bolts.

He advised that fitting the heavy duty (and cut down and modified) Balmar tension bracket to give greater adjustment range, may require some heavy washers (1/4", 1/2", 1"), available on the website, due to the offset in the Yanmar tension bracket, and perhaps some other thin washers. Sometimes depending on the engine, the tension bracket will fit better with behind the alternator tab. He advised that alignment of this bracket is important as it may twist the entire alternator out of alignment.

Dude, what's up with the red text? Black is beautiful.
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Old 11-08-2018, 06:54   #57
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Re: Small Boat Electrical for Sail

Sorry, I don't see the red text in the original post. Totally inadvertant. Don't know how or why.
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Old 11-08-2018, 13:37   #58
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Charger Location

Stu and John, I found some interesting information from Rod in his article
on Sterling's webpage towards the bottom, find

"Read this comprehensive article reviewing the installation of a Sterling Power ProCharge Ultra. This article was written by RC Collins of Compass Marine Inc. Images in this .pdf are copyright of Compass Marine Service.

http://www.sterling-power-usa.com/library/Sterling Power USA - Marine Battery Charger tips and Considerations.pdf
Several pages in he writes:

"Choose A Location

1 - Mount the charger in a location were it can run cool and air can move around it. An engine space is often a poor location (NOT HERE) If the charger has a fan (IT DOES) be sure to mount the inlet and outlet in areas where they will have unobstructed air flow. ...ventilation holes in lockers, and then cover the holes with pre-made ventilation grills to allow air flow.
2 - HULL is not a dark color.
3 - NOT mounted in a battery compartment/space
4 - Try to find a location that is dry and will not have the possibility of water dripping on the charger. If there's even a slight potential of water exposure a drip shield should be constructed to protect the charger. The drip shield should prevent water from damaging the charger, but also allow for proper cooling. This is not always an easy task so mounting in a known dry spot is always the best approach. Generally speaking, higher in the boat is often better than lower in the boat for a charger mounting location. Areas closer to the bilge, or with direct ambient access to the moist bilge air, tend to be more humid and corrosive environments.
5 - Close to the battery bank/banks as possible
6 - Clean and free of oils, vapors or other sorts of contamination.
-------

The starboard cockpit locker clearly meets #1,2,3,5&6
Item #4 is the real question because the unit is accessed from the cockpit lifting seat lid, so there is a potential water issue. He mentions providing a drip shield to prevent water from damaging the charger.

-----
I have found a $35 ABS Nema WP Enclosure with hinges and lock, so the unit can be locked away safely will sailing, but have questions about how the fan intake/exhaust iworks.
-----
I have not broached the use of a inside portside cabin locker behind the seat cushions, to my dear wife. (so that locker door would have to be open when charging) -I'm chicken I guess!

-----
What about getting the remote control, would that help?
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Old 11-08-2018, 13:50   #59
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Re: Charger Loads (future)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgleason View Post
I had decided on a Stirling Pro Charge 12v-40amp
The boat lives on a mooring and anchors often. For reaching a full charge we will need to find shorepower on a regular basis to assure 100%SOC. Use of shore power needs to be reasonably short (3-4hours).

1. Generally we will have motored into the harbor for 30 minutes-1 hr, so much of bulk charging would be done.
2. When docked, house loads may be:
  1. Refridge Danfoss BD 7.2 amps
  2. Refridge fresh water cooling pump 4 amps
  3. Refridge loads could be lowered to about 5.2a but the refridge will not cool off as fast.
  4. Computer 7 amps
  5. Lights 1 amp
  6. Total 19.2 amps
3. Plus the charging amps needed for the batteries! Which depends on the state of charge. If still in bulk mode towards the end with 225ah batteries, we would need 15a-6a. If the battery bank is doubled, or changed to AGM, 30a would be needed.

4.So it is very possible that a 50a or 60a charger would be very useful, despite being used less than the other charging systems.

The Ozifridge can be connected to 120VAC shorepower by changing the shore plug from AUS to US 120vac, which will reduce Charger house loads by 11 amps, to 8 amps. The hot water tank heating element can also be put on separate circuits on an new 120VAC ELCI Panel.


The 40a Charger now looks ok to me, with 8a house loads estimated.
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Old 13-08-2018, 15:45   #60
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BS SI-ACR Automatic Charging Relay

BS SI-ACR Automatic Charging Relay - 12/24V DC 120A 7610
https://www.bluesea.com/products/761...12_24V_DC_120A

I am debating if a combiner is needed or wanted.
  1. The trigger points are not adjustable in voltage, as I understand it.
  2. The unit will combine when solar PV pushes voltage above 13.75v and disconnect at 12.75v and 16.0v. - I would rather not have that happen solar is to recharge the house.
  3. If the reserve is just a simple lead acid battery and the house is AGM or something else with a different charge regimen, I don't want to combine.
  4. However I want to be sure the reserve battery is kept charged.
Is there any device that would be appropriate?

Perhaps the reserve battery should be completely isolated and voltage monitored. Then charged up when necessary by changing the regulator program and setting the battery switch to 2?
Any good suggestions would be appreciated.
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